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PWScottIV

Samsung SC-HMX20C HD Camcorder

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I really wish that Sony used SDHC (non-proprietary) flash memory and offered a 30p mode... I would buy that camera in a heartbeat. They don't, so I'm sort of stuck.



Do you really see that much of a quality difference? I really question this whole line of reasoning. Do you make money from online video? Why do you care so much about the quality of youtube video? I don't take online video very seriously. Right now I consider all streaming video to be of low quality. If it weren't it would take too long to download. I wouldn't waste my time worrying about the quality of youtube video.

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One really comes to think of Don Quixote written by Miguel de Cervantes :D


I'm quite aware that I'm NOT an expert. However, I do know enough to be dangerous.:)




:|hmmmm.... Bags not being on your first camera jump.[:/]
.....And you thought Kiwis couldn't fly!!!!

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you're very right to question this sort of thinking.
The camcorder isn't shooting native P anyway, it is interlaced at the sensor.
Deinterlacing adds little to no extra time in final output, and when you're dealing with AVCHD, "no extra time" means nothing in the grand scheme.

When was the last time I *saw* anyone have an epileptic seizure watching 30p? Never. I don't know any epileptics well enough to be in their homes. When is the last *instance* I'm aware of? A couple months ago. Does it matter? No. The point is that the judder bothers the eye, particularly when in the hands of those who don't know how to operate it.

ANYONE who claims to see the difference in quality in a YouTube or other UGC stream from a deinterlaced 50/60i source vs a 25/30p source is either a fool or a liar. At 1/8 original rez, it's impossible.
Starting with "more" is almost always better. Starting with more when working with high motion is *always* better. 60p is the grail. Til then, for *most* applications, 60i deinterlaced properly is the preferred mechanism for high motion/low budget. It's how we deliver to CNN, Discovery, National Geo, Food Network.
I detail the workflow in my new book "The Full HD."

Which image is from a 60i camcorder?
First two are YouTube rez, other two are full rez/original from NLE.

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I really wish that Sony used SDHC (non-proprietary) flash memory and offered a 30p mode... I would buy that camera in a heartbeat. They don't, so I'm sort of stuck.



Do you really see that much of a quality difference? I really question this whole line of reasoning. Do you make money from online video? Why do you care so much about the quality of youtube video? I don't take online video very seriously. Right now I consider all streaming video to be of low quality. If it weren't it would take too long to download. I wouldn't waste my time worrying about the quality of youtube video.


I'd never even flinch at buying a fixed 60i camera if youtube was my only potential venue... I've found a service called Brightcove that's free and very high quality. I made a post about it awhile ago: (http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3109173;search_string=brightcove;#3109173)
As you can see, the quality is substantially greater than any of the other video hosting sites. I contacted the owner of the first video and he confirmed that it was shot in 30p. I figure if I'm going to spend the time to film and edit the footage, then I might as well do everything I can to make the final result as good as possible... Shooting with 30p to start off with does that. How many people really watch your videos on DVD? I'm sure it happens occasionally, but unless you're selling your videos, it's unlikely that many people will ever see them. Posting videos online makes it possible for just about anyone to see my videos... And just because I'm not making a profit, doesn't mean I should make the video look crappy.
Gravity Waits for No One.

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you're very right to question this sort of thinking.
The camcorder isn't shooting native P anyway, it is interlaced at the sensor.
Deinterlacing adds little to no extra time in final output, and when you're dealing with AVCHD, "no extra time" means nothing in the grand scheme.

When was the last time I *saw* anyone have an epileptic seizure watching 30p? Never. I don't know any epileptics well enough to be in their homes. When is the last *instance* I'm aware of? A couple months ago. Does it matter? No. The point is that the judder bothers the eye, particularly when in the hands of those who don't know how to operate it.

ANYONE who claims to see the difference in quality in a YouTube or other UGC stream from a deinterlaced 50/60i source vs a 25/30p source is either a fool or a liar. At 1/8 original rez, it's impossible.
Starting with "more" is almost always better. Starting with more when working with high motion is *always* better. 60p is the grail. Til then, for *most* applications, 60i deinterlaced properly is the preferred mechanism. It's how we deliver to CNN, Discovery, National Geo, Food Network.
I detail the workflow in my new book "The Full HD."

Which image is from a 60i camcorder?


I'd say the "youtube1" was shot in 60i... Only because you're probably trying to trick me... Unless you shoot the same speed motion in both modes, then it's impossible to make a fair comparison. It's obvious that neither person is moving in the "youtube1" image, and it's obvious that the TM just hopped to the side in the "youtube2" image.

I agree with you on this point for sure - 60p IS undoubtedly the holy grail of HD video. But I'm not holding my breath. I know it will happen, but that day may still be a few years away till the price and size becomes reasonable. One thing is for sure, if 60p was available for our application and budget then we would not be having this discussion.
Gravity Waits for No One.

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In neither point was either subject standing still, I choose that contained similar motion. They're two different skydives (hopefully you can tell that one tandem student is a woman in front of the hangar and the other student is a male in a big field).
Happy to post video as well, but my questions still stand.
Which was shot at 60i, and or what kind of small camcorders were used to capture these images?
I don't think I can "trick" you, you know enough to be dangerous.

*hint-camcorder small enough to helmet mount

BTW, 60p is very much available, has been available, and will only become more available.
Scott Campos jumped a 60p camcorder at Eloy late last year, but it's not the only 60p camcorder by any means. But 60p, like every other framerate, is a tool.
A tool to be used when appropriate.
30p is a number. Without particular other components, it's just a number, just like 24p or even 60p. There is a reason the DVX 100 is known to be responsible for more bad video in the world than good video. Because there are some that are into measurebating as opposed to actually understanding, and making decisions based on actuality rather than fadism. I think the Stiletto is a really cool canopy, but it's one that isn't suitable for wingsuiting. Since I like to wingsuit, my understanding of that canopy has led me to understand it's probably not the best option for me.
Why do you suppose Norm Kent, Joe Jennings, Mike McGowan don't shoot 30p most of the time?

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In neither point was either subject standing still, I choose that contained similar motion. They're two different skydives (hopefully you can tell that one tandem student is a woman in front of the hangar and the other student is a male in a big field).
Happy to post video as well, but my questions still stand.
Which was shot at 60i, and or what kind of small camcorders were used to capture these images?
I don't think I can "trick" you, you know enough to be dangerous.

*hint-camcorder small enough to helmet mount

BTW, 60p is very much available, has been available, and will only become more available.
Scott Campos jumped a 60p camcorder at Eloy late last year, but it's not the only 60p camcorder by any means. But 60p, like every other framerate, is a tool.
A tool to be used when appropriate.
30p is a number. Without particular other components, it's just a number, just like 24p or even 60p. There is a reason the DVX 100 is known to be responsible for more bad video in the world than good video. Because there are some that are into measurebating as opposed to actually understanding, and making decisions based on actuality rather than fadism. I think the Stiletto is a really cool canopy, but it's one that isn't suitable for wingsuiting. Since I like to wingsuit, my understanding of that canopy has led me to understand it's probably not the best option for me.
Why do you suppose Norm Kent, Joe Jennings, Mike McGowan don't shoot 30p most of the time?


Well, I'd honestly guess that the 60i was the youtube2, but I don't get the feeling that it's an even comparison. There seems to be interlacing artifacts on both, but on the first one that might just be aliasing because of the low resolution. Youtube2 definitely is interlaced, regardless of when it happened (in the camera or during encoding). De-interlacing that video either during editing or while encoding would remove most of those artifacts, but the edges of objects would never be as crisp as they could be if shot in 30p.

With respect to 60p 1920x1080, I know the cameras are "available", but from what I was able to find, they're both extremely large and expensive... Much out of the range of $2000... More like $50000 from what I saw. And I doubt there's anyone who would jump said camera daily (due to both).

The only reason I want 30p is because I know that is going to look the best on Brightcove, which I have chosen as my primary mode of distribution. If I could get 60p, I wouly only be able to use half of those frames for viewing online... However, if I decided to slow the speed down, I could do so at 1/2 speed and still get the same frame rate as if I had shot it at 30p. Additionally, converting to other modes (24p, 60i, etc) would probably produce better results, and obviously playing the video on an HDTV that is 60p capable would look much better, at least with high-speed motion.

I still think 24p has it's place (which is why I'd also like my camera to be capable), but the best luck I've had with that was when I knew where I was going to have to pan the camera (and more importantly how fast, so I could be at the proper zoom to do so). In a couple of instances, I actually had very good results with even high-speed motion (roller derby matches). I erected a very stable double-high scaffold to give a decent perspective on the rink. As long as I was able to "lock into" the subject well, I found it did a wonderful job of making the subject the focal point of the shot... Obviously the background and even some of the other players had serious motion blur, but the overall effect was exactly what I wanted. Obviously, it took an extreme amount of concentration and motor control to keep the camera stable, but canon's OIS is very effective. That said, I've seen quite a bit of crappy shots taken with the DVX100, but you can get crappy shots with the $60,000 cameras as well if you don't know what you're doing.

I do want to have clean smooth video for skydiving, so I'll use whatever works best to be able to post on brightcove... You still haven't answered my question regarding the fact that I'm going to be posting online in 30p whether I like it or not, so why would I want to shoot in 60i?
Gravity Waits for No One.

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A-there are 720p60 camcorders available. for sub 2K (not worth having, but they exist).
B-You can't convert 30p to 24p properly, that one statement says a lot about your understanding of video and processing it but...
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Obviously, it took an extreme amount of concentration and motor control to keep the camera stable, but canon's OIS is very effective.


says the same thing with regard to skydiving video.
You've apparently made up your mind that no matter what, you want 30p. So...go for it.
If half the spatial and temporal resolution work for you...GREAT!
[/url]http://www.youtube.com/user/VASSTTraining[url] might help you gain a better understanding of some small aspects of video.

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Betting the farm on a single technology (BrightCove in your case) is something you really need to think through, expecially in wake of the recent HD-DVD failure. Toshiba wrote off over $700 million on that one, I'm willing ot bet that BrightCove can not write off that type of capital to stick around if something new comes along that is better. Flash player has serious limits to the quality that it is capible of playing, for the most part anything over 480*320 is ported to another format because the flash encoder just is not optimal at those settings. WMP10 codec tends to be the better bet for the higher size files.

Have you asked the question about is 30P the correct format for high speed sports over at DVinfo yet? I think you should since they will give you an unbiased opinion.

Just remember 99% of skydiving is high speed pans and movements with varying amounts of light so your format needs to be able to handle those with out issue. It doesn't matter if the format you deliver perfers one format over the other if the content is unwatchable due to it being too stroby.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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Betting the farm on a single technology (BrightCove in your case) is something you really need to think through, expecially in wake of the recent HD-DVD failure.



Very much worth repeating, IMO.

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Have you asked the question about is 30P the correct format for high speed sports over at DVinfo yet? I think you should since they will give you an unbiased opinion.



Just quickly searching over there, the answer is there, plain and simple. As it is on the CreativeCOW.net too.

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Just remember 99% of skydiving is high speed pans and movements with varying amounts of light so your format needs to be able to handle those with out issue. It doesn't matter if the format you deliver perfers one format over the other if the content is unwatchable due to it being too stroby



Also worth repeating. Delivery format is rarely a consideration unless you're absolutely sure you're doing a film-out.
24p @1/48 offers serious challenges to any aerial cinematographer, which is why higher shutterspeeds are used. They're also getting full resolution, not half n' half, which makes motion estimation and smoothing easier. 60i, for *most* purposes (outside of 60p with lossless or low compression) is the best format overall, simply because from 60i, one can very easily make half-rez 60p (looks stunning with the right tools), can be cross converted to full res 30p, can be cross-converted/resampled to 24p very effectively, can be used to deliver a multi-master, and is perfect for archiving. It also can be converted straight across to 60PsF very easily and also looks great at 50Mbps MPEG2, or at 18Mbps AVCHD delivery.
BTW, in another thread, you mention that you use Premiere? You can't get AVCHD into Premiere just yet. There is a new tool called AVCHD UpShift that launches in a week that will make AVCHD easy in Premiere, however...but it's more money.
The issues of 30p and high motion are myriad, but the issues of 30p, crappy lens, very weak encoder, semi-decent imager, plastic body, no remote, no compatibility with many video apps, slow CPU time, half spatial, half temporal resolution all add up to "why would you want to?" for me, personally.
I mentioned our YouTube channel, I'd be curious if you could tell which of those are shot at 30p, 24p, 15p, 12p, 25p, CF 25, CF30, 50i, and 60i. Yes, all of those formats are up there. The "Video for the Web" DVD goes into all these formats, and there is a high-motion car chase (we actually witnessed robbers fleeing the crimescene in real-life) that looks like absolute shit. The cameraman is a very experienced cinematographer both in the air and on the ground.
Finally, even though what I've had to say on the subject hasn't given you pause to re-think, I'd recommend you either spend the money buying the ACM (American Cinematographer's Manual) or going to the local library and checking it out. Read up on temporal and spatial compression and motion. As soon as high motion becomes part of the discussion, framerate, shutterspeeds, spatial resolution (least important in this discussion), and technique all combine to make a fairly complex response.
Remember that strobing footage does not encode well, as redundant pixels are what encoders love. In skydiving, redundant pixels are plentiful, yet there are thousands of horrible encodes on the web at various resolutions proving that just because the sky doesn't move doesn't assure great encoding. Shooting for the web is far more challenging than shooting for broadcast.

I think I've offered about all I can sensibly offer, so if your mind is set on 30p and skydiving...then go into it knowing that you've got some significant challenges ahead of you that even members of the ACE and ASC have all struggled with on the ground, let alone the air.
Either way, good luck with it. We'll all look forward to seeing your results, either on Brightcove or other UGC site.

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A-there are 720p60 camcorders available. for sub 2K (not worth having, but they exist).
B-You can't convert 30p to 24p properly, that one statement says a lot about your understanding of video and processing it but...

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Obviously, it took an extreme amount of concentration and motor control to keep the camera stable, but canon's OIS is very effective.


says the same thing with regard to skydiving video.
You've apparently made up your mind that no matter what, you want 30p. So...go for it.
If half the spatial and temporal resolution work for you...GREAT!
[/url]http://www.youtube.com/user/VASSTTraining[url] might help you gain a better understanding of some small aspects of video.


A - I wasn't referring to 720p... Everything we've been talking about here has been in reference to 1920x1080 HD. And although I don't honestly know when we'll see something with 60p that's affordable and jumpable, I was speculating that it's not going to happen soon enough to have that be my next camera.

B - I NEVER said I wanted to convert 30p to 24p... I was talking about converting 60p to 24p (which IS possible), but I assume any camera that could handle 60p would also be able to do 24p so it's a mute point. I had also mentioned that I wanted a camera that does 30p, 24p, and 60i, so maybe that's what confused you... Read back and I you'll see that I never said that.
Gravity Waits for No One.

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Betting the farm on a single technology (BrightCove in your case) is something you really need to think through, expecially in wake of the recent HD-DVD failure. Toshiba wrote off over $700 million on that one, I'm willing ot bet that BrightCove can not write off that type of capital to stick around if something new comes along that is better. Flash player has serious limits to the quality that it is capible of playing, for the most part anything over 480*320 is ported to another format because the flash encoder just is not optimal at those settings. WMP10 codec tends to be the better bet for the higher size files.

Have you asked the question about is 30P the correct format for high speed sports over at DVinfo yet? I think you should since they will give you an unbiased opinion.

Just remember 99% of skydiving is high speed pans and movements with varying amounts of light so your format needs to be able to handle those with out issue. It doesn't matter if the format you deliver perfers one format over the other if the content is unwatchable due to it being too stroby.


It's true that putting all of my eggs in one basket with brightcove is sort of a crap shoot, but they seem to be pretty diversified and have some pretty serious customers. The majority of their market pays to have them host video, but if you have less than 1000plays per video per month, it's free, after that they have several options, including advertisements. It's a different strategy than youtube or the other hosting sites. It's true, they could fold, but I really don't get the feeling that's going to happen right now. Additionally, if they did fold, I could serve the videos myself on my server, so it's not that big of a deal.

I did try to post over at DVinfo yesterday, but even after I activated my account, I still didn't have the proper permissions to start a thread for whatever reason... Maybe they have some sort of waiting period so people don't setup accounts and then post advertisements or something?

I obviously don't want the video to look stroby, and I know exactly what you're talking about. I haven't experienced too much trouble shooting with 30p on my dvx100, so I didn't consider that it might be a problem for skydiving. I'd really like to see an example of what it looks like, but if everyone is shooting with equipment than only has 60i, then I might have to do those tests for myself. Do you know anyone who has any test footage? Or is it possible that everyone is scared of it because nobody has actually tried it?
Gravity Waits for No One.

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Also worth repeating. Delivery format is rarely a consideration unless you're absolutely sure you're doing a film-out.
24p @1/48 offers serious challenges to any aerial cinematographer, which is why higher shutterspeeds are used. They're also getting full resolution, not half n' half, which makes motion estimation and smoothing easier. 60i, for *most* purposes (outside of 60p with lossless or low compression) is the best format overall, simply because from 60i, one can very easily make half-rez 60p (looks stunning with the right tools), can be cross converted to full res 30p, can be cross-converted/resampled to 24p very effectively, can be used to deliver a multi-master, and is perfect for archiving. It also can be converted straight across to 60PsF very easily and also looks great at 50Mbps MPEG2, or at 18Mbps AVCHD delivery.



It's not that I don't want the option to shoot with 60i, it's that I want the creative freedom to be able to shoot with 30p and 24p as well. I'll be using this camera for more than just skydiving... To afford it, I'm going to replace my dvx100 with it. If 60p 1920x1080 was available (in a more affordable and smaller package) then I would get a camera that could handle that.

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BTW, in another thread, you mention that you use Premiere? You can't get AVCHD into Premiere just yet.


MainConcept has a product that supports AVCHD in Premiere.


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The issues of 30p and high motion are myriad, but the issues of 30p, crappy lens, very weak encoder, semi-decent imager, plastic body, no remote, no compatibility with many video apps, slow CPU time, half spatial, half temporal resolution all add up to "why would you want to?" for me, personally.


I didn't know that this particular camera was soo crappy. From the specs it sounded pretty sweet. I'm leaning more towards test testing the Canon HF10. I don't think anyone has actually tried it to see if the OIS is going to be a problem. I know it's a problem with previous Canon cameras, but I don't know if this camera will react the same way. If I can buy it at a location that has a 30-money back guarantee (like best buy), then I'd be ok with being the guinea pig. Remember, another reason that I don't want to go with Sony because they refuse to use a non-proprietary flash memory format. The minimal size and maximal cost of that Pro Duo crap isn't something I want to buy into.

Additionally, Sony only allows you to take up to 3 still shots while you're shooting video... Apparently, the HF10 shoots as many stills as you want while filming (as long as the memory you are using is class-4 or faster). I only want to have one camera that shoots video and decent stills. Mostly because I think it would be safer. It's not as likely that I'll get a horseshoe mal if I just have one well snag-protected camcorder and I'll have less to think about with just one device. Maybe once I get a lot more skydives (and experience shooting) I might consider jumping both a still and a video camera at the same time.

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I mentioned our YouTube channel, I'd be curious if you could tell which of those are shot at 30p, 24p, 15p, 12p, 25p, CF 25, CF30, 50i, and 60i. Yes, all of those formats are up there. The "Video for the Web" DVD goes into all these formats, and there is a high-motion car chase (we actually witnessed robbers fleeing the crimescene in real-life) that looks like absolute shit. The cameraman is a very experienced cinematographer both in the air and on the ground.


If I was posting on youtube then we wouldn't be having this discussion... I would just buy any shitty camcorder. The quality at youtube (or just about anywhere else online completely sucks. Obviously you can't see the difference in those formats on youtube. Did you not actually look at those brightcove videos I posted? Do you really think they look anything at all like youtube?

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Finally, even though what I've had to say on the subject hasn't given you pause to re-think, I'd recommend you either spend the money buying the ACM (American Cinematographer's Manual) or going to the local library and checking it out. Read up on temporal and spatial compression and motion. As soon as high motion becomes part of the discussion, framerate, shutterspeeds, spatial resolution (least important in this discussion), and technique all combine to make a fairly complex response.
Remember that strobing footage does not encode well, as redundant pixels are what encoders love. In skydiving, redundant pixels are plentiful, yet there are thousands of horrible encodes on the web at various resolutions proving that just because the sky doesn't move doesn't assure great encoding. Shooting for the web is far more challenging than shooting for broadcast.


Thanks, I'm always interested in learning more. I'll check that out.

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I think I've offered about all I can sensibly offer, so if your mind is set on 30p and skydiving...then go into it knowing that you've got some significant challenges ahead of you that even members of the ACE and ASC have all struggled with on the ground, let alone the air.
Either way, good luck with it. We'll all look forward to seeing your results, either on Brightcove or other UGC site.


My mind is stuck on having a camera that's at least capable of shooting 30p... Like I've said about 10 times, I'd also like to have 24p and 60i available to use... Unfortunately, Sony doesn't give you that choice at this time.
Gravity Waits for No One.

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This is from a previously uninvolved reader of this thread:

Dude, give it a rest. You chimed in with a product opinion backed with zero experience. When others (with experience) piped in with contrary views, you,...well... you just started whining. It's okay if you don't agree with the others (a democracy means having the right to be wrong), but don't feel you have to post longer and longer replies just so you can get in the last word.

And BTW, if your profile is accurate you shouldn't even be thinking about flying a camera at this stage. Really. REALLY.

No need to reply. I know already that you don't agree with my post either.

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Dude, give it a rest. You chimed in with a product opinion backed with zero experience.


What the hell are you talking about?! Maybe you should re-read my post. I was asking what others thought about a new product that's coming out. Obviously I don't have any experience with it, as it hasn't even been released yet.:S

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When others (with experience) piped in with contrary views, you,...well... you just started whining. It's okay if you don't agree with the others (a democracy means having the right to be wrong), but don't feel you have to post longer and longer replies just so you can get in the last word.


I'm not arguing just for the sake of arguing. I'm just getting conflicting opinions from different sources and I'm attempting to separate fact from fiction. I'm not twisting the arms of the other posters, they are posting on their own free will. Additionally, I'm not twisting your arm either... If you don't want to read this thread then skip it... There's plenty of others out there.

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And BTW, if your profile is accurate you shouldn't even be thinking about flying a camera at this stage. Really. REALLY.


I'm fully aware of this. However, I'm supposed to have my new rig in from UPT in a couple of weeks and I'm planning to start jumping a lot more frequently. I don't think it will take too long for me to get to 200 jumps or so. I want to start shooting HD while rock climbing, scuba diving, and snowboarding as well, so that's why I'm looking for a camera now. My current camera (AG-DVX100B) is just too big (in weight and dimensionally) for my current needs. Skydiving seems to be the most demanding on cameras, so that's why I'm attempting to choose a camera that will be compatible with that environment.

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No need to reply. I know already that you don't agree with my post either.


Whoops, hope you didn't HAVE to read this post too.:)
P.S. Your post seems an awful lot like whining as well.:S Maybe even more than mine.:)
Gravity Waits for No One.

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well if nothing else this thread does illustrate that we can, and will go over the same stuff,,,,
ad infinitum.....DSE thy name is "patience"
PWScott, thy name is "tenacity"...

i posted earlier, only cause you asked about 'samsung'. and that alone, had me wondering about your experience and credibility...:|... i mean samsung?? for God's sake???

so,,, when i check back to this thread,,, i see that points made by DSE and PharmerPhil are but a window of opportunity for YOU to refute, argue, disagree and otherwise reject.....

yet the kind moderator here, continues with the respectful back and forth, the willingness to share his knowledge, as did others,,,
still 20 of the 40 posts are by PWScottIV, and mose seem agumentative.....
volume doesn't always equate to substance, and though you declare your knowledge in many other "sports and activities" that may not relate to skydiving....

wanna know ONE good thing to work on, if you'd like to succeed in this sport??????
humility........... it goes a long way...

so when you do hit that "magic 200" :S:|:S
and you do strap that samsung camera on your head, i wish you the best.....:|:|
now can we let this thread , finish???

peace.

jimmy
a3914
d12122

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I've looked at Mainconcepts product since I'm a Premiere boy (unlike all the Vegas lovers on these forums :P:D) and I wanted to get a CX7. Flat out it sucks for workflow. Premiere and AVCHD are not made for each other right now. I understand from other sources that render times are slow and file sizes are way bigger then needed. Their web pages mention DVD resolution (SD quality) for realtime editing, HD is slower. Not to mention that is a $450 plugin,add that to the $800 price tag for PP CS3 and that is an expensive solution. Flat out Premiere and Apple (Imovie, FCP) are not the platforms to use for now if AVCHD is your platform. Come back to Premiere after they finally add AVCHD support (probally CS4 >:() and it will be an option again.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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I've looked at Mainconcepts product since I'm a Premiere boy (unlike all the Vegas lovers on these forums :P:D) and I wanted to get a CX7. Flat out it sucks for workflow. Premiere and AVCHD are not made for each other right now. I understand from other sources that render times are slow and file sizes are way bigger then needed. Their web pages mention DVD resolution (SD quality) for realtime editing, HD is slower. Not to mention that is a $450 plugin,add that to the $800 price tag for PP CS3 and that is an expensive solution. Flat out Premiere and Apple (Imovie, FCP) are not the platforms to use for now if AVCHD is your platform. Come back to Premiere after they finally add AVCHD support (probally CS4 >:() and it will be an option again.


Thanks. That would've sucked to find that out for myself after I purchased it. I was thinking about moving over to AVID or Final Cut if I couldn't get Premiere to handle AVCHD... Do you know much about either of those?
Gravity Waits for No One.

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Final Cut is on Apple only. I hear it is even worse then Premiere for AVCHD but I'm yet to get an Apple to test it. DVInfo or CreativeCow says about the same but people swear that on their environment its fine.

You can try the demo of MainConcept but I took some time to look around since I am running CS2 and decided its not worth the $450 for the plugin and $400 for CS3. I'll wait for CS4 and hope it supports it then.

I guess there is some AVCHD - P2 app out there that is a workaround also for Premiere CS3. Its clunky since every but needs to be transformed into the secondary format and you need CS3 with the free update to support P2. Takes up double the hard drive space and you then have to deal with the issues with the P2 files.

In reality if you are only looking at delivering on BrightCove any Standerd Def camera will work just fine since you are delivering it at 480*320 or 480*285 I think if you trim the letterboxing. YouTube runs their videos through an aggressive codec setting to shrink the files as small as they can get them with acceptible quaility. My understanding from reading the Brightcove website is they just allow better settings in the codec, still below HD or SD resolution but better then Youtube. Looking for a specific recording format to deliver to the host only to have them chop the pixels and compress it sounds pretty pointless to me if you are able to stream it yourself at a higher quality anyways.

Take a look at this YouTube clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJw1rlmJ81U Watch it for a few seconds at full screen then exit, click the little link under the video that says Watch this video in higher quality. It should link to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJw1rlmJ81U# but I might have the links wrong. Youtube is offering higher quality streams now too.
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I guess there is some AVCHD - P2 app out there that is a workaround also for Premiere CS3. Its clunky since every but needs to be transformed into the secondary format and you need CS3 with the free update to support P2. Takes up double the hard drive space and you then have to deal with the issues with the P2 files.
.



There is one other AVCHD solution for Premiere (or any other platform application) that will release at NAB next week. The developer of the app is one of the greatest in the world....:):D:D:ph34r: me.:$

Stop by NAB booth SL7910 if you want a personal demo. It's easier, faster, and significantly higher in quality than the MC option, and only costs $50.00.

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You can try the demo of MainConcept but I took some time to look around since I am running CS2 and decided its not worth the $450 for the plugin and $400 for CS3. I'll wait for CS4 and hope it supports it then.


I have CS3 and I did download/install the MainConcept Plugin... Unfortunately it's not gonna be too useful until I get access to some AVCHD footage though. From what I've seen, CS4 isn't going to support AVCHD either, but if Adobe pulls their heads out of their asses, that may change.

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I guess there is some AVCHD - P2 app out there that is a workaround also for Premiere CS3. Its clunky since every but needs to be transformed into the secondary format and you need CS3 with the free update to support P2. Takes up double the hard drive space and you then have to deal with the issues with the P2 files.


I didn't know about that, so I'll have to look into it. I've got quite a bit of storage space, so that shouldn't be too much of an issue. It would be nice if there was something more streamlined out there, but I might have to just deal with the extra time requirements until a better option presents itself.

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In reality if you are only looking at delivering on BrightCove any Standerd Def camera will work just fine since you are delivering it at 480*320 or 480*285 I think if you trim the letterboxing. YouTube runs their videos through an aggressive codec setting to shrink the files as small as they can get them with acceptible quaility. My understanding from reading the Brightcove website is they just allow better settings in the codec, still below HD or SD resolution but better then Youtube. Looking for a specific recording format to deliver to the host only to have them chop the pixels and compress it sounds pretty pointless to me if you are able to stream it yourself at a higher quality anyways.


That's what I was initially thinking... But when I asked their technical staff, they said that shooting in progressive HD would produce better results. I guess it's possible that they're full of crap, but I don't know. I'm thinking that maybe the effect is similar to what you see when you attempt to view an array of fine lines on an LCD screen... For instance, when you look at an excel document on an LCD, some of the horizontal lines can look different size, some even disappear. I could be wrong, but maybe there's a similar effect when you downsize video and the ratio of lines in one direction (width or height) isn't even (i.e. going from 720 to 320). Is it possible that the downsized final product might look better if you've started off with more lines of resolution? I guess I should ask them exactly what their reasoning for making the claim is. Their justification for using video that's shot in progressive mode makes complete sense to me, as the final product ends up in 30p regardless of what format you began with.

But yes, the primary reason that the video looks so much better than anywhere else is that you can encode the video with essentially whatever settings you want (there's obviously some rules such as dimensions and file type). Although, I'm pretty sure they throttle the max speed for each video, so setting everything to the highest quality might have your audience sitting around waiting for the video to start for quite a while. However, when you use the default settings, a 5 minute video downloads in about 15sec, so there's definitely quite a bit of room for improvement.

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Take a look at this YouTube clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJw1rlmJ81U Watch it for a few seconds at full screen then exit, click the little link under the video that says Watch this video in higher quality. It should link to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJw1rlmJ81U# but I might have the links wrong. Youtube is offering higher quality streams now too.


Yeah, but I'm pretty sure they're charging CBS for that. I doubt it's available to regular users for free like Brightcove does.
Gravity Waits for No One.

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I do want to have clean smooth video for skydiving



Then I recommend spending more time on your skydiving at this point... spend that money on jump tickets when your new rig arrives and by the time you are ready, who knows what new cameras may be out to suit your needs (except DSE who may well know... :P)
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Mate if ya wanna run camera just run it at the end of the day everyone excels at different rates and i am assuming you have the recommended jump numbers so no big deal!
If you want crisp footage save and buy top of the range! at the end of the day it takes many jumps and alot of experiance to obtain really good footage of which you may be some time off yet? My suggestion is go buy the Sumsung for now run it untill ya master the art of videoography in the sky by then you'll want something better anywayz! The top of the range now will then be half the price and you'll be looking at the top of the range again! haha good ol technology advancement.
Just give up with dragging out this Forum or at the very least buy the sumsung and give us a review at the end scince it appears know one else on your forum is game to even give it a go? Its not like your flying camera for a living so a mal or two is not really going to effect you at all is it? Sometimes ya just gotta take the jump my friend.

LAter
Sharpy

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