4 way How high and what lens

[j3zz 0]

HI all

I did my pre second camera jump on the weekend filming a social 4-way.

I use a sony PC 107E

For this jump I used no lens and had it zoomed right out.

I was attempting to fly directly over the formation, apart from some sighting and flying issues I felt at times I was a bit close IE started to feel the burble the problem is in all the video it looked like I was miles away.

So my question is this was is the optimal distance to be above a 4 way when filming it and what would be the ideal lens setup for my camera.

I have a feeling if I had had it zoomed in a bit I would have got better footage of the stuff I took
But I hear people are using WIDE anlges to film 4 way

Also are ring sights a realistic snagg point as they are on the front of the camera??

Thanks all

Jezz

"Now I know why the birds fly"
Hinton Skydivers

[D22369 0]

I was attempting to fly directly over the formation

Quote

Call me a sissy, but this is one thing I try really hard not to do.....

I use a .6 lens and try to vary my height and distance from on level (to get the face shots) to 8' at a max above (again, trying really hard to not be directly above them)

***********

Also are ring sights a realistic snagg point as they are on the front of the camera??

yes they are a potential snag hazard, I quit using one when Jan Davis had hers snag on her reserve D bag's closing loop, she died. as I understood it, she deployed the reserve before getting stable....

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[Kjeld 0]

Hi Jezz,

First of all don't fly above a 4-way or any formation at all for extended periods of time. Just a short move over a formation is ok but imagine what happens when you are above it and during a block move of the 4-way a reserve opens accidentilly....I promise you if you continue to do so it is a matter of time.

When you fly above the 4-way you also have problems with the burble as you already found out. Flying IN a burble is pretty hard, so stay on the edge. Also your footage looks more solid if you stay out of it.

A lot of cameramen use wide-angle lenses so they can be closer to the formation (1.5 to 4 meters). This way it's easier to anticipate and follow movements of the formation, especially changes in fallrate. It also helps for getting more solid footage. The distance depends on the lens you use.

Ring sights are definitely a snagg point on your helmet, but if it is realistic? When you obey the rules and are aware of the constraints of camerawork I don't think you should worry too much about it, but if you have plans to open a reserve while on your back or video the cutaway of a malfunction and more of those things, yes, then it can be a very real danger. A camerajump isn't just another jump, you add a lot of potential shit to your body and increase the mental workload of a skydive a lot. So treat a camerajump like something special and think through all the potential hazards. Maybe you might have to change some procedures you were used to, but don't start to invent the wheel again.

Be carefull with trying, go find and ask an experienced cameraman on your DZ. 200 something jumps is not so much of an experience in my opinion. Make sure you are a good flyer before you start doing camerawork, don't try to become a good skydiver by doing videowork. The fact that "they look miles away" already shows that you should maybe improve your flying skills first.

Kjeld

[j3zz 0]

Thank you for the response,
I understand that 200 jumps is not a lot and that adding a camera brings a lot of new possiblities,

I will point out at present I am using a 2K FFX which you put the camera in from the inside so essentially apart from being a bit wider than a protec has no more snag points, If I put on my wide angle that will stick out the front a bit which I think can only be a snag if I pull unstable. I have not got a ring site but am considering one.

I was told that the correct way to shoot good 4 way is to fly directly above the formation and not to follow it arround if they are not falling in the tube they need to sort out their skills. Ideal world senario

So that is the goal I am shooting at and do not expect to achieve over night.

The point that I was trying to make is that although I felt like I was flying close enough( I could see them big as you like) at times the picture was to small so I am really asking if you are going to fly above the formation\which if it turns out is not the best way I will not do how far do you need to be to avoid the burble and how do you setup the camera to get the best results.

If not one is shooting using this style please let me know how you are doing it and with what setup so I can learn the right stuff.

Another thing is the formation I was videoing are not exactly pros it was hardly a 4 way for any of the dive anyway, just a bunch of guys having fun on the weekend.

With my current setup I cannot see how it is a bad thing to just go out there and try of course bearing in mind to always remain safe. it can only increase my skills

Thanks and comments appreciated.
I feel happy with the desicions I have made but as always really want as much info as possible to make the right decisions

Jezz

"Now I know why the birds fly"
Hinton Skydivers

[PhreeZone 15]

Flying directly over will lead to you falling on the team. And even the best teams slide around. Watch Airspeed or Majik's video guy from the outside and they are working their butts off trying to keep the team framed correctly.

I filmed with a .5 and was either just a tad too close and their feet would be out of frame or I'd be too high and the team would only fill 3/8's the screen and it was almost unjudgeable. I finally got it figured out that I need to be about 8 feet up.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[j3zz 0]

Thanks Phree

I take it then that you are 8 ft above and off to the side what sort of offset allows you to still get judgable video?

Thanks

Jezz

"Now I know why the birds fly"
Hinton Skydivers

[PhreeZone 15]

You'd be surprized at how flat you can be and still be judgeable, including under

Quade, JP or one of the serious RW camera guys are going to be able to tell you the best angle to be at.

Side question. Are you filming with a camera suit or in a freefly suit? Does your suit have booties?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[j3zz 0]

A baggy freefly suit for now don't want to be adding to many new things all at once, wings bring in another element of danger, I will get a camera suit when I am more confident

I am not looking at a fast track to stardom but want to make sure that what I am doing is building good foundations for the future.

As an aside I am not expecting nor aiming to get paid to do any type of camera work anytime soon, but in a few hundred jumps time then sure I might like to make something out of it, but for now its to have fun be safe and learn skills for the future

Jezz

"Now I know why the birds fly"
Hinton Skydivers

[quade 3]

You really need a wide angle lens for the exits. Eventually, you're going to get too close to them on exit and without the wide angle lens you're going to let a grip go out of frame, which is something the judges are -not- going to like if you or I do it.

For competition, I jump with two cameras and two different wide angle lenses. Some other camera flyers like to have two of the exact same lens on both cameras, but a wide and ultra-wide is kind of standard for most folks jumping two cameras. Titanium 0.45 on my main camera and Royal 0.3 on my backup camera. If you wanna take a look at some images to compare how wide is wide . . . go here . . . http://futurecam.com/wide.html

As for distance, that depends on your main camera lens. On my set up, I can use the edges of the ring sight as a rough guide for framing, so I usually just let their feet touch the top and bottom and things work out pretty good.

As for angle, I like to have my head right over the feet of the closest point turner.

Attached is a typical framing. You'll note that I -do- cut off some feet. Big freekin' deal. You don't get points for feet, you get points for grips! There -will- be times you want to frame it up a bit looser, so you're not constantly riding an elevator up and down when they get a little wide on a block move. All random dives can be quite tight, but big blocks . . . loosen it up a bit. Helps a lot when the long formations end up being top to bottom too.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[freefallcrab 0]

It sounds pretty obvious but then again maybe not to a newbie - dont be fooled into thinking you are steep when you are not because of your head position. You need to be looking down on - not across - the formation. You might find that this means tilting your head down more than you expect - not quite tucking your chin into your chest, but almost! Like quade said, getting your head to a position over the feet of the closest point turner is a good guide, but dont be caught out by the formation moving around - intentionally or otherwise. If time allows I watch the dirt dive so I can anticipate the next point, not only laterally but vertically in the case of fall rate changes during blocks.

Use your wings Johnny....

[j3zz 0]

Here are some frame grabs from some subsequent dives

All filmed using a kenko .043 bumped in 1 and half clicks.

I would be interested in any comments as well as, wether or not each of the points would be accepted as judgable

Thanks
Jezz

"Now I know why the birds fly"
Hinton Skydivers

[quade 3]

Frame grabs can be deceptive because well, it's hard to tell exactly what's happening at all the times between the shots.

Is there anyway you can upload an entire dive or two to a server somewhere?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[DaGimp 0]

Paul just wants to be through....but from what you have posted, they are completely judgable, and not a horribly bad distance. You can suck it down a little more to try and fill the frame with your subjects, and the only way to know the distance for that is when on the ground, take a look through your camera, see what are on the boundries of your frame, and then look at about how far away you are from those boundries. It all comes with practice. From what i see your not doing all that bad at all. But get a wide angle lens for those exits, then keep in mind that you will need to be closer to the formation.

"Professor of Pimpology"~~~Bolas

[quade 3]

Well, I also want to look for something I -think- I see that he's doing but can't bee 100% sure because I'm just looking at stills.

What I -think- I see is some orbiting.

I also want to see what his head shake might be like.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[PhreeZone 15]

Paul, I never did thank you public for some advice that you gave me here about 2-3 years ago when I first started to video some RW and I was having horrible orbiting issues. With the help of the advice given to me and reviewing some videos I almost have it all worked out and I'm not moving more to fill the shot when ever I film RW.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[quade 3]

You're welcome.

There are specific times when a camera flyers need to move, but for the most part it's far more important for them to have the appearance of doing nothing. As I'm sure you've found out, making it look like you're doing nothing is harder than it looks.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[DaGimp 0]

Quote

making it look like you're doing nothing is harder than it looks

here here

"Professor of Pimpology"~~~Bolas

[Rdutch 0]

If your intention is doing competiton video, the two things you will definitely need is a suit with huge wings and booties. With that covered you will have the extra range you will need, next is a lens that is wide enough. I used to use a sony .06 which was actually wider than my kenko .43 but after jumping the diamond .03 I think there is no other lens, the Diamond is the best lens out there, hands down.

Now for the how high, what I can suggest is to look at your video and tell how high, if your filling the screen without grips being out of frame then thats how high you want to be, it will take a few jumps to figure that out. And steep, I myself fly the heck out of the burble but I have 3000 jumps filming 4way. When I first started shooting 4way my team told me, to learn how close is too close you have to fall on the team, so I did. I suggest the same, you will figure it out a lot faster that way. Once your off the hill its quite easy, learn where to be on the hill and the rest is a cakewalk. If your doing it right you wont need your wings, booties or the wide angle lens, but they all help out and help out a lot over time. One last thing I.M.O NEVER PEEL its too easy to get an NJ some of the best peelers still NJ. Think of it this way, the team is presenting a picture to the back of the flight path, where would you want to be to get that picture best, behind it where the shot is presented or in front of it trying to get behind it?
Most of all, ask around, look around and figure out what works best for you. There is hundreds of videographers out there with hundreds of styles, find your own, Im sure you will do fine.

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!