500 way website now up....

[Ron 7]

Quote

In the end it the camp system is a good thing, it works to a degree.

Heck, I think the camp system is *great*. It gives people who don't live in the bigway areas and who do not know the right people a path to be invited on the big stuff.

And bigways have been about making money for about as long as I can remember. I don't have a problem with that either.... I like a free market.

Quote

For me, a west coast camp is 6 day gig and around $3,000. I love big ways. I don't mind camps they can be a lot of fun but I'm happy sending my 6 days/3K elsewhere.

Money to fun ratio is why I stopped doing bigways. Looking at the 2011 P3 100 way, it is 860.00 for 18 jumps.

820/18 = 47.77 per jump.
Regular jumps are what 22 bucks there?
Team rates are normally less.

I'd rather make 40 4way jumps than 18 100 ways. But thats just me.

Quote

These people who don't jump at the right dz, with the right people and don't go to the camp do have the risk of being replaced by camp jumpers.

That is nothing new in bigways. I once was cut from a bigway because one organizer wanted to put a buddy on that had showed up late. But, the lead LO had invited me and told the other LO that he could not cut me. In the end, I didn't miss a jump and was moved to a late diver and they just added me on a loop. I know all of this because we all joked about it later....

Bigways have always had politics.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mirage62 0]

Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


These people who don't jump at the right dz, with the right people and don't go to the camp do have the risk of being replaced by camp jumpers.

Quote

That is nothing new in bigways. I once was cut from a bigway because one organizer wanted to put a buddy on that had showed up late....

I agree with everything you said...but my point is that the camps have added another layer to the above. What happen to you, I know, you understand has ALWAYS been there. I bet there are buddies of your that you'd taken someone out to put on a jump (maybe not be 99% of the folks have friends that they would do that for) The camp system is ON TOP of that. All must be for the most part capable.

I suggest that the pecking order would be:

1. Capable friends
2. Capable campers
3. Others

As far as money....your kidding big ways have always been about money???

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[Ron 7]

Quote

I suggest that the pecking order would be:

1. Capable friends
2. Capable campers
3. Others

Heck I'd like to see it the selection order as:

1. Qualified.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mirage62 0]

Quote

Heck I'd like to see it the selection order as:

1. Qualified.

Hence the part where I wrote "capable"

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[mdrejhon 8]

Quote

Quote

Let's not forget this. Many frequent P3-campers who have been to four 100-way event with extremely high big-way currency, already outperform many of the 400-way World Record team members who have not been staying big way current lately.

Data to back that claim?

Attend P3 several times, and watch them perform. Watch the video. How high/low they track, how well they accurately get into their slot, how the organizers criticize them.

MANY world team members are amazing performers and they vastly outpeform me, but it's already clear from the video debriefs that many people (apparently, including me) have surpassed the performance of several prior world team members who have not been staying current.

That is not to necessarily say I should get a slot myself. For a 1000-jump sky wonder, there are indeed such P3 regulars who are more trusted to a slot in the upcoming 500-way, and will perform more reliably in a 2-week progression of a 500-way record, than a specific previous World Team member, that have not been staying current. (Mind you -- I perhaps wont, since I have fairly low jump numbers in this league, and I clearly will need to compensate by a massive surge of jumps/tunnel in year 2012 and potentially at least one 200ish-way somewhere before 2013.)

Dozens of people can vouch for this generality, billyvon (who already did), cpoxon, katecooper, and in fact even BJ Worth would vouch -- he also prefers to choose a highly current 100-way jumper who has never done a 400-way, than a person who hasn't jumped a single 100-way (or bigger) since the 400-way World Record, especially if they are attending one of their recent events and showed them to be a great 100-way flyer.

In one case, I even saw someone at P3 reassign to the base, some prior world team member when that world team member funneled someone else (two DIFFERENT people, so they couldn't blame the 'other guy') two times in the same day and went unrecoverably low both times.

MANY world team members are amazing performers. But there are already at least a couple dozen uncurrent in the group of 400 that currently underperform many P3 regulars.

[mdrejhon 8]

Quote

The camp system as it sits right now is broken but thats for another thread

All systems are broken. The question is what system is the least broken.

Quote

For me, a west coast camp is 6 day gig and around $3,000. I love big ways. I don't mind camps they can be a lot of fun but I'm happy sending my 6 days/3K elsewhere.

For me, it's a 4 day gig, and I'm further away from P3 than you are (your profile suggest you are near Memphis). I'm in eastern Canada, almost 1.5 times further away Memphis and I've still successfully managed to need to need to take only 2 vacation days off for a single Perris P3 camp, plus the 2 weekend days. I work the Wednesday prior the camp, fly during the evenings on a Wednesday, start camp Thursday-Sunday, and I return on a late Sunday evening or red-eye flight. (Camps end early on Sundays to allow people to fly home).

I can share a motel at $40-$40 each ($160 total) at Super 8 Sun City near Perris. But I usually save even more money than that! The onsite dropzone IHOP hostel house with kitchen/AC/heating/free WiFi at Perris costs only $15/night. I reserve months in advance. If it is ever sold out, the bunkhouse cost me $10 per night, and I can camp onsite for free. I never rent a car (except if I'm also flying the LA highways on vacation on the days prior/after). I have always successfully gotten pickups at airport and rides back to airport are common.

A Perris camp trip cost me only $1600 in total trip expenses ($860 camp + $500 international airfare + $75 Perris IHOP hostel + $200 bombshelter restaurant buffet food). Free T-Shirt and a bump upwards on the candidate list for record events, priceless.

If you want to pamper yourself instead, it is still under $2000 including shared car rental and hotel. I would be surprised if you have to spend twice as much as a mere distant Canadian such as moi.

Yes, it is still expensive, but I think your numbers are slightly high -- even when I ask my friends at P3 for cost saving tips, and some who don't bother saving money, end up spending less than $3000 from the east coast, and is rarely more than a 5 day gig (for those who like to preserve sleep), and is still only a 4 day gig for many.

Quote

For me, a west coast camp is 6 day gig and around $3,000. I love big ways. I don't mind camps they can be a lot of fun but I'm happy sending my 6 days/3K elsewhere.

If you gain the most pleasure in getting maximum jump per buck, the camp system is the wrong way. If you gain the most pleasure from the accomplishment of participating in an event on the fast track with minimum number of vacation days, you gotta pay up.

Tunnel time ($$$) and big way camps ($$$) as well as major events such as JFTC/MWR/Kaleidoscope ($$$) accelerate your ability to be invited to events, without taking as much vacation time off. (Self employed, my vacation time is unpaid). I became one of the lower jump numbered person to participate in a prestigious Kaleidoscope event.

When I jumped in Kaleidoscope 2009, some other P3 regulars including Greg Mirken and others, had fairly low numbers (i.e. barely above 1000) compared to the average jump numbers of a BJ Worth Kaleidoscope roster. Despite known rivalries between the two groups, BJ does not reject enthusiac P3 regulars that also want to attend BJ events.

Bang-for-the-buck, and experience-improvement-per-day the camp system have shown obvious wins in getting P3 members invited into events, especially those who plays all events. It is big winners for self-employed people like me who can only get time off to skydive 10 "long-weekends" (150-200 jumps) per year. And many of my friends CANNOT, in the belt-tightening era, get days off work.

A single P3 trip gains more big way experience, tracking safety experience, precision flying experience, than going to their cessna home dropzone every weekend for two months in a row (16 days of weekends). There are people who say every single P3 jump teaches as much as one full day at their regular dropzone, especially if it is a Cessna dropzone that doesn't suit their vibe as much. (P3 events have been well known for their amazing vibe). Sometimes these people rather scale back their dropzone visits back to "every-other-weekend" (8 days of weekends in a 2 month period) and spend the savings on throwing in an extra P3 trip.

P3 experience gain reputation points too. P3 participants bring the skills back to their dropzone, now becoming a clamored coach or load organizer of novice 4-ways, thanks to their newfound improved reputation at their home dropzone, allowing them to accelerate their own learning experience even further at home. I even noticed that when I went to a couple of dropzones I rarely went to; they knew I went to many P3 events and asked if I could load-organize a couple of novices in a 3-way. (That itself was a learning experience; and also trying to keep things simple and safe, also cross-checked the load organizing plan with the DZO to see if it was simple enough)

For many reasons, not just including these reasons, the camp system is essential and successful to people like me.

[mdrejhon 8]

Also -- feel free to send me more PM's if any of my counter-argument replies sounded arrogant. Right now, I am merely providing healthy counter-arguments to the Internet anti-camp crowd (not targeted at you, Ron/mirage3 in particular -- and you both did admit that the camp system still has advantages too). I suspect at least one or two others might have felt slightly offended by my slightly aggressive counter-defenses to comments made against the camp system.

Let me close this by saying I don't necessarily deserve a 500-slot. Perhaps I don't belong in the next Kaleidoscope, or TSR, or CSR, because for a 6 month period in 2010, I slightly reduced my bigway currency due to my Toronto move and my summertime skydiving injury (abrupt canopy opening at RB2010). Some organizers already noticed my temporary blip in participating in slightly fewer bigways in 2010 than 2009. (but still lots in 2010 relative to most people). That's a perfectly legitimate concern for big way organizers to reject me from the next bigger-than-100 event. I do plan to hit big ways in a increasing pace again, targetting participation in Dubai 500 in 2013.

I had no intention of sounding overly defensive against the talk made against the camp system. Arrogance get people killed, yes. I am plainly aware of that. But I am going to continue to provide healthy counterpoints to the arguments made against the camp system.

[mirage62 0]

Hey Mark,

Well first I'm from Georgia. Second I didn't say that it couldn't be done cheaper I said what it would COST ME. When I was a young man I did the red eye - and your right you can fly all night to work all day - and you can cut the cost down, split rooms ect, ect. I don't want to. But that's a choice.

Quote

I had no intention of sounding overly defensive against the talk made against the camp system. Arrogance get people killed, yes. I am plainly aware of that. But I am going to continue to provide healthy counterpoints to the arguments made against the camp system.

You must have missed where I supported the camp system but wither you wish to see them are not there are flaws with anything.

Quote

the camp system have shown obvious wins in getting P3 members invited into events, especially those who plays all events.

Which was my point. The "wins" you talk about are real. Especially if you go to a LOT of the events. You seem to actually believe that someone who goes to a P3 event suddenly becomes better than a person with lot's of big way experience that is current AND he did the camp system through and through. The camp is a good learning tool if you need it, it is a good refresher should you be uncurrent. It does get you in front of the RIGHT people but it doesn't suddenly make you better than others that have been there done that and stayed current. I'm sorry to break this to you but is just isn't that hard to do big ways.

Quote

I became one of the lower jump numbered person to participate in a prestigious Kaleidoscope event.

Don't feel like such a hero. I believe the lowest I've heard about had 287 jumps. By the way she was later on JFTC and is a great jumper. It seems like there was someone with around 400 jumps on the 400 way so with your +1.000 you'll be a shoe in. I think the average on the last record was 4,000. I had a little over 2,000.

Quote

BJ does not reject enthusiac P3 regulars that also want to attend BJ events.

I didn't think BJ was in the habbit of rejecting P3 regulars. Why would he? I never said that there was anything WRONG with P3 regulars.

Quote

he also prefers to choose a highly current 100-way jumper who has never done a 400-way, than a person who hasn't jumped a single 100-way (or bigger) since the 400-way World Record

LOL, tell that to the really good RW jumpers that will be on the 500 way that don't normally do 100 ways.

I believe your logic is flawed here Mark because someone who hasn't done a single 100 way since the 400 way would be UNCURRENT.

Quote

MANY world team members are amazing performers. But there are already at least a couple dozen uncurrent in the group of 400 that currently underperform many P3 regulars.

Well thats the kind of sweeping statement that I love to chat with you about "couple dozen" I mean you have seen 24 different 400 way jumpers that are underperforming the P3 regulars??? Wow.

Let me just mention this to. When the 500 way get's real REAL lot's of these uncurrent folks will hit a camp or two, and they will be "current" and they will have know a lot's of these organizers for a LOT of years. they will have 100's of hundred ways and they will get slots for the most part.

My point is Mark not that there aren't P3 folks (like yourself) that aren't just shit hot. Not that all of the 400 way guys are shit hot, they aren't. But part of the selection process will be "How many camps have you been to" if it comes down to fairly close equal skill than the high camper with a good attitude will get the slot over the other guy. They WON'T get the slot over a proven performer who has rev'd back up before the event.

Once you have done this you may feel that the camps are so much fun that you are more than willing to keep going to them - and I promise you if you do your odds of getting on the next 600 way will go be way up.

If you decide to not and you don't get a slot cause the next Mark gets your slot....well that will be your choice to.

All this is just for fun. I hope and believe you will get there and I'll be very happy for you when you do!!

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[mirage62 0]

Quote

Someone who is doing bigway practice dives regularly is going to, in general, be better than the guy who doesn't have to.

and

Quote

Someone who has successfully done the past four world records with World Team is going to have an easier time getting on the fifth World Team attempt than someone without that track record - so it's easier to let their skills slide a bit more.

Bill actually sums it up nicely. The "old world teamer" may have to do a camp to "warm up" but it isn't going to take a lot to assure a spot although they may not be as sharp as the camper on a jump or two.

I guess it's all about peaking at the right time

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[mdrejhon 8]

Yes, most of your points are good ones.

It will likely take fewer catchup camps for a previous 400-way world team member to get invited. That will definitely happen in many cases. That said, one or two bad impressions -- and oops. I saw a few past record holders not get invited to an event I attended -- they applied and didn't get in. So clearly, it seems to happen from time to time. (Yes, it is likely just a simply a combination of a a currency issue and lack of "face time" in front of specific big way organizers they don't jump as often with). I did get declined from CSR, TSR and the SQ1-200, while I did get accepted into MWR, 2009 Kaleidoscope, ZTeam 2010, Canadian Record. It is important to stay current further in advance and put your face in front of more organizers more often, to maximize your chances. That said, there's MORE onus on the new ones to "show their stuff"...

And you got it right on about peaking at the right time. Arguably, the P3 regular that attends 4X as many big way events (there are some out there now -- I'm seeing a few P3 regular friends who jump way more often than I do, attend 2 events a month that involve 16-way to 200-ways, ranging from 16-way speed sequentials) will have plenty of opportunities to out-peak. They are the ones who got invited to TSR, CSR, SQ1-200 (which I didn't get accepted to) -- they weren't even skydivers yet in 2006 when that 400-way world record happened. Some of these P3 regular friends outranked in the selection process over some higher-jump-numbered world team members. (Granted, one did 900ish SELF-PAID non job jumps in one year and attended more than half a dozen P3 events in a year! And is a 4-way team member at their home dropzone, and probably has triple digit tunnel time by now) They will outrank certain high numbered-jump world team members who even revisit a P3 camp 2 or 3 times because of the sheer simple currency overwhelming -- not all world team members are THAT current, who can compete with a P3 regular who has something like 900 self-paid RW jumps a year with a hundred of hours of 4-way tunnel, to something I lost count of, something like over 2000 RW jumps since they started just three years ago or so? (but you and I also agree on that point of currency anyway). This is just a friend I know. There are others. I saw 3 members who I don't remember the names of, of a 4-way team come from a eastern europe country (I dont know how many jumps each, but they were the national team for their own country), and pretty much aced one of the Perris events on the first try, much better than I did at my first Perris event back in May '08. Certianly, it is expensive for those people. (Lucky SOB's!) No matter if you are a new pup or a world team member, you got to have face time and sky time... Nobody can get complacent.

Currency considerations aside, there is no argument that the onus is much higher on young pups (And people like me) who needs to work harder at staying big way current, to compensate for our lack of World Team or other massive record experience. That said, there appears to be a few past record members who will lose out because they did not attend a specific camp (i.e. Dubai 500 requiring at least one attendance to a P3 event in most cases). Some will just need to be patient enough to endure one "camp" and mesh into the P3 vibe. And if they are not into that, then some other young pup (or me) might step one slot up on the list of potential candidates for the last few slots on that 500-way. The ones that are patient enough, are the ones who listen through the video debriefs, and are willing to learn new things, even if they are already highly experienced. I suspect there was some dissapointment by some world team members in P3, since sometimes it happens that some of them are not accepted at say, a TSR or CSR or JFTC or even simply Canadian Record. Someone said they don't want to go to a "camp" and watch others funnel. (Yes, I got that by someone else in PM in the not-too-distant past, from someone other than Ron and mirage62). But the last P3 100-way did a successful 100-way on the 7th attempt -- there wasn't that much funneling, and funneling is still important learning experience. (there were minor occasional localized ones which were video debriefed in a very educational manner). And yes, it is likely easier for some to stay with the main group (i.e. BJ Worth side), while it is easier others to stay with the other group (the P3 side) where they have more reputation with. It is not going to stop some people, like me, to continue and try to apply for events at both, even if the cost of certain events might be a little higher.

Not to be a 'hero' as it wasn't my aim, I was "one of the lower jump" relating to Kaleidoscope 2009, not THE lowest -- somewhere in the lower 5th percentile in numbers of lifetime jumps at the time -- I pointed that out merely to show that BJ did likely, indeed, take my P3 and MWR experience into consideration when he invited me to Kaleidoscope. Despite rivalries between the groups, there is a limited worldwide pool of skydivers for various major mega-bigway organizers to draw upon. Anyway, there's no disagreement about that, so I'll close out that paragraph to say we generally agree on that bit...

And finally -- Georgia, the overseas, or Georgia the U.S. state? When I flew from Ottawa, that's about 2400 miles. Atlanta is only 1900 miles from Los Angeles and Atlanta probably has nonstops where I had to do connections. (I sometimes drive/train somewhere else to an alternate further-away airport that provides nonstops -- it occasionally results in exactly the same time but less hassle) Granted -- yes -- you are probably in a part of Georgia that's far from a convenient airport. You could still probably leave work at 3pm on the Wednesday, and still get a 5-day trip (3 vacation days) with a good night's sleep on the first and last nights. But that said, $3000 may be realistic for a rural resident far from a convenient airport. I think it is not typical of the average P3 jumper -- so I'll just redirect it as a defense not to scare away the typical person interested in P3, since while it's not cheap, the vast majority of attendance from North America aren't generally paying $3000 per event.

I'll note again that I did say all systems have their own respective flaws. That includes camps.
It was a counter-argument to somebody's statement that the camp system is flawed.

[billvon 2,400]

>Heck I'd like to see it the selection order as:
>1. Qualified.

That's basically what it is. Organizers really, really want the best people they can get, because a successful record lets them charge more the next time. Question is - how to prove you're one of the best?

By far, the easiest way you can prove you can do a 500 way is to do a successful 400 way. Which is why it's easier for returning jumpers to get on.

Next best way is to demonstrate it to an organizer at a large dive they are on. If they see you perform, they can judge your skill. If they don't, they can't.

Being friends with an organizer can help tremendously because they've seen you perform a lot. They've seen you show up at 7am dozens of times even when others are late. They've seen you go home early when everyone else is partying the day before the record starts. They've seen you deal with someone cutting you off on your approach, and listened to your description of that.

It can also hurt you if you're really not all that qualified, because they see more of that, too.

To get on any record you have to ensure two things:

1) You have the skill/dedication/responsibility to do the dive
2) You can prove it to an organizer

[mirage62 0]

As much as I hate to admit it Bill has sum it up in a couple of parahgraphs pretty damn well.

I'll add this. This will be my second year organizing a the georgia state record - a whole big 66 way.... It really impresses me that P3/BJ ext, ect aren't just nasty people You can never make everyone happy and it's a lot of work!!

Just for the record, one day I hope to make it back out to Perris for some big ways if they'll have me. Time is superr tight for me right now but in no way do I mean to say that I don't miss my west coast friends to.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[rhys 0]

Quote

Money to fun ratio is why I stopped doing bigways. Looking at the 2011 P3 100 way, it is 860.00 for 18 jumps.

820/18 = 47.77 per jump.
Regular jumps are what 22 bucks there?
Team rates are normally less.

I'd rather make 40 4way jumps than 18 100 ways. But thats just me.

When I attended a P3 big way camp in 2009, the price was similar.

I found it to be great value.

These were not just your regular skydive, they were well planned, well thought out, well prepared, (usually) well executed skydives with thourough debeifs and video analysis.

One would learn more in one jump at a P3 camp than multipule jumps with some buddies that pretend to be experts.

I wish I stayed for the 100 way camp afterwards but our schedule did not allow for it. My wife had to attend to prove her worth for JFTC and I decided to participate myself for the experience.

Worth every cent IMHO.

I plan on attending more in the future. It is amazing how somebody with that experience can simply explain something and make your life that much easier. It may well have taken that coach many jumps to work out that tactic they explain to you in a few sentences.

My first formation skyvan exit was the slot just behind the base, a quick breif from the team leader had me in slot and next to the base first time and docking very quickly (yet smooth and stable). If I had not have had the detailed explanation of exactly how I should have exited, I would not have been in he same place and the people behind me would have had to wait longer also and less liklihood of the formation being built

These camps make the records possible.

There is no substitute for experience.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[jumpwally 0]

" concern that i wouldn't be able to handle the stress of the event"......Thats an odd thing to say without an explanation. Please explain,,how did they know this or think this ? Do you have a history of going Postal...do you start throwing chairs if the resturant is out of ketchup ?

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[mirage62 0]

LOL, know I think it was a cave under the preassure and start crying uncontrollably......to not be able to function.

If anything I was to CLEAR that I was after a slot and most likely I was waaaaaay to aggressive in pushing.

Yes you can read that as I was a brown nosing, ass kisser that flew ALL over the country and went to every event I could make. Got invited back to each and everyone of them to.

It was a bs excuse that was never given to my face by the people or person that used it, truth was I didn't go to enough camps and others did.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[jumpwally 0]

are you going ?

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[rhys 0]

I would love to but have not put any sort of effort into such endeavours.

My wife however is quite experienced and competant in big ways, she has multipule world and national records in bigway and she has applied. I may attend (if she makes the cut) but I intend on competing in the swoop meet there also so we will have to see how business is in early 2013...

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[kkeenan 13]

Quote

...I was a brown nosing, ass kisser that flew ALL over the country and went to every event I could make. Got invited back to each and everyone of them to.

So, you're saying that Mark is on the right track ?

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[mirage62 0]

Read my sig line and just think what YOU had to do....moon rocks and all

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little