Big way...

[kemaljump 0]

Hello guys...
I and my frienda think to do a big way but we don't have some ideas except star positions.. we think to do 30 way and than 40 way and 50 way then... it can bie 32 or 36 or something like that also.. do you guys have some forms and diagrames or drawing figures that we can do easily? now I have attached here couple figures that we think to do... if you do some comments and send me some figures by attaching here I will be happy...
thanks...

[kallend 1,853]

Quote

Hello guys...
I and my frienda think to do a big way but we don't have some ideas except star positions.. we think to do 30 way and than 40 way and 50 way then... it can bie 32 or 36 or something like that also.. do you guys have some forms and diagrames or drawing figures that we can do easily? now I have attached here couple figures that we think to do... if you do some comments and send me some figures by attaching here I will be happy...
thanks...

Kemal,

They will both float as they build because the centers are so densely packed. You will find the fall rate slowing as they build and people on the outside going low. You need to keep the center open to keep the fall rate up.

I suggest only having three zippers on the first formation, instead of a zipper between every base pair. Then build whackers off the stingers.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kemaljump 0]

Thanks so much for the reply and the reccommendation... I have read your advise and I will keep that in my mind about not to make the center densely packed... but would you please make or draw some figures or quate from any formation which has been done before for 30 ways or smth. like that... I am trying to understand your saying "I suggest only having three zippers on the first formation, instead of a zipper between every base pair. Then build whackers off the stingers. "...
I will be very happy about it if you explain me a little bit clearer... Forgive me please for the lack of English skydiving terminology that I can't understand the "whackers" and the word "stingers"... and here I am adding another 2 attachments foto figures.. Here at tha new figures I have tried to take your advices and drow them.. If you please check them and comment about them also I will be very happy.. thanks again so much for the reply...
blue skies....

[mdrejhon 8]

Hello kemal,

The second of the two is better, in my opinion, but it depends on the formation...

Although I do not have yet extensive experience at being load organizer of a big way (20-way max), I have been to many big way camps, events, as well as mini-record attempts (Deaf World Record, Gay Way World Record) and have observed successes and failures. I load-organized the last 12-way Gay Way World Record (successfully, with two sub-100 jumpers, and the base never funneled), and will be load organizing the next 20-way Gay Way World Record. (with the assistance of a couple of others) Thus, I have a perspective of what it takes for a zoo-load big way to success. It is important that all jumpers are safe at tracking and canopy in traffic, so test-jump all the lower timers if possible...

So the questions really are:
- What are the skill levels involved?
- How many attempts over how many days?
- Is this semi-zoo?
- Safety considerations?
- Will there be resources/someone with big way skills to tutor the less experienced big way jumpers (i.e. Perris Camp style) during video debrief, or are you sticking to highly experienced big way jumpers?

For a typical 30-way jump, let me assume you're doing only one weekend of attempts (2 days), possibly with a slightly zoo-ish audience (some 100-jump wonders who's already proven safe in canopy and tracking, mixed in with some 1000-jump people who mainly did tandems or freefly, mixed in with lots of people with real big way experience) .... If we are aiming for success especially with people who don't regularly jump big ways, there are some considerations that I don't like about your design:

- Funnel-resistant base might be necessary if the base doesn't do practice 6-way exits in the days prior to the big way, and you've got a shortened event. For small big ways, the exit should be 4-way linked. Double-gripped (all arms gripping each other's shoulder grips) 4-way star works wonderfully and often recovers even when flipped upsidedown. Funnel proofing the base can save a lot of time, even if you have two experienced floaters merge in for a 6-way. Nothing is more annoying than consecutive base funnels; often done when cramming too many inexperienced jumpers into a too-large base.

- Flyway routes to the inside of the formation Although your formation is OK with experienced big way jumpers, your formation does not provide enough room if one of inside people is late. This causes traffic congestion while people wait for others to go into slots. This is why whackers, in spiral and pinwheel formations are popular. They allow, in many cases, people to fly to the inside without slowing down the outer people docking. If a 30-way is your first formation of the day, I suggest a simpler one that has less layers of potential congestion.

...Fallrate optimization Your formation is going to fall slow, as people will be stretched out trying to grip everyone with both arms. That makes people big. That makes formation fall slower. That makes people on the outside go low. Especially if they are not experienced at this. Better use whackers instead.

...Practice/test jumps You may wish to have 2 groups of 15-way or 20-ways test jumping formation, and to help slot people in the larger planned formation. Also to test the skills, and test the reliability of the base. Also to possibly cut...er...move a few people early to the "reseserve team" that jumps concurrently with the big ways, if you're concerned on getting a successful state/world record as quickly as possible in the fewest number of attempts, they can even come back for a re-jump for bigger record after the successful record, possibly.

...Exit optimization Easy-well-designed 30-ways are easier than harder-designed 20-ways, and also 15 people empty more quickly out of two Twin Otters, than 20 people from one Twin Otter. (so for success, don't cram the planes if you don't have to)

... So optimization for all kinds of jumpers is important. Where do you put the least experienced big way jumpers in your 30-way? The more experienced? Do they do best in the base? Can they dock quickly in the middle wave? Will they avoid going low when docking on the outer? Will they block people who are late for the formation? Will the formation fall slow or fast? Do we have enough time to practice and test the formation (i.e. challenge quality), or are we mainly concerned with maximizing success (i.e. successful state record) with a semi-zoo load?

-

I have to turn a zoo load into a successful 20-way this coming August 28th, and I intend to design several formations that I can use, based on test jumps. We also have a 30-way in contingency, just in case, and I have a more-experienced big way organizer who will work with me on this, if this needs to happen. Wish me luck.

[kallend 1,853]

30-way #4 is the best design you have put out so far.

That arrangement has been at the center of a number of successful big formations.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kemaljump 0]

Does the 30-way #3 formation works also? And thank you so much for your comment and advice...
blue skies...

[katecooper 0]

Hi Kemal
I like #4 as well. I would recommend you lose the 6 way loops (loops are notoriously difficult to build) and put three way whackers on each zipper stinger--one whacker off of right leg and the other from left leg. Easy Peasy!

Have a great time and good luck
kate

[kemaljump 0]

Thanks for your reply Kate...
First of all I want you to forgive me fot the lack of my some English terminology about big way skydiving that "whacker off" and the "zipper stinger" and also the "6 way loop" that I can't understan those words... and would you please (if you can please) draw the figure that you intended so I can understand clearly... I am just trying to understand better... And I really thank you about your comment and I will keep every words you and others will tell me and comment about my questions...
thanks a lot again...
blue skies...

[kallend 1,853]

Quote

Does the 30-way #3 formation works also? And thank you so much for your comment and advice...
blue skies...

With good enough skydivers you could build it, but building the lines between CATs will be very tricky since they don't have much structural integrity.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ltdiver 3]

Hi Kemal,

Take a look at this web page where many successful big-way formations have been created. The lines with only one end having a grip on another skydiver (and being open at the other end) are called 'wackers'. Hope this helps.

http://www.bigways.com/

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[jsaxton 0]

I think what Kate's saying is:
6 way round in the middle
zippers off of that
a "stinger" or "slot flake" off the zipper

Up to there it is what you have in the diagram

instead of making lines betweek the leg grips on the zippers instead put open ended lines of three people each off the leg grips on each side of the "stingers"

[mdrejhon 8]

Quote

The second of the two is better, in my opinion, but it depends on the formation...

Clarification: I was referring to the second image in the second post. Which means, it's #4. (filenames are numbered).

Explanation of terminology:

Zipper -- the red guys in your #1 are called zippers, because they lock together like a zipper. Zippers can be multiple layers deep.

Stinger -- the yellow guys in your #1 are called stingers. It's a pointy end that dock on the very end of a zipper, so that is why it's called a stinger.

Loops -- in your other diagram, the yellow guys in #4 are called 5-way loops because it is 5 yellow men at a time. Loops is a line of side-by-side skydivers that are connected on both ends.

Whackers -- They are like loops but are connected on only one end. The 400-way World Record www.theworldteam.com used a lot of whackers, because whackers are easier to build than loops, they can safely distort more and still be a successful formation. In a whacker, whackers are easier than loops, because only one person needs to be in an exact location to dock, rather than two persons at the opposite ends of a loop.

"I suggest only having three zippers on the first formation, instead of a zipper between every base pair. Then build whackers off the stingers. "

In other words: In diagram #1, you have six sets of zippers in the first formation. Remove every other zipper (every other pair of red men), and move them as whackers that dock off the legs of the stingers (yellow men)

Now please re-read my post and katecooper's post, with the understanding of this terminology.
Are you designing for quick success (easy big way?), or are you designing for difficult challenge for experienced big way jumpers? (difficult big way?) You do realize that your diagrams are not the easy ones, except marginally for #4, but it can still be designed to be even easier.

[kemaljump 0]

Hello again guys...
Thanks all of you... I have been very good informed about my questions and I appreciate your replies... I have learned so many things with your explanations...
so hera I have drawn a new formation figure for 30 ways according to your knowlages gave to me at your replies... this new formation figure is at attachment which consists "zippers", "stingers" and "whackers"... I gave up building loops... I guess this 30 way will work easier and better than my last 4 foramtions... so again I am waiting for your comments... Thanks so much again all of you...
blue skies...

[rehmwa 2]

That's a nice one #5 - simple and it'll build out

or.......

perhaps an jewel with double-opulated cresent flakes, reverse mounted stinger pods and few in-outs might donutize the whole thing into a center-rich umbrella lift formation with wackers on the stingers...

but that's silly, you'd need to launch the chunk and roll out the diamond murphs

nevermind

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kemaljump 0]

Hi guys again...
After I have learned many things from you and the replies of all of yours... I have produced another 30 way formation figur here at attachment... I am looking forward to your replies and comments again... thanks so much...
blue skies....

[mdrejhon 8]

Quote

Hi guys again...
After I have learned many things from you and the replies of all of yours... I have produced another 30 way formation figur here at attachment... I am looking forward to your replies and comments again... thanks so much... blue skies....

I like #5 and #6 the best too. The last one, #6, is probably the most 'forgiving' 30-way, as long as you can successfully keep the 6-way star strong.

You may have to launch your 6-way star base as a 4-way first, with two experienced floaters quickly docking in "on the hill", to create the 6-way. This is often more reliable than trying to chunk the 6-way out, but if you find good jumpers that can chunk out a 6-way star, then go for it.

Make sure the base is not all the same color -- have a good contrast -- one person of a highly contrasting color, helps greatly in other people figuring out their radial (correct "o'clock" position, i.e. correct angle)

...

You've suceeded in creating a formation that would be fairly easy for anybody who has any reasonable experience at 20-ways (including being near the back of an Otter). Now, the next step is we need to make breakoff simpler...

Most 30-ways can safely be done in just 2 breakoff waves, so you may wish to design the formation slightly differently so that it's easier to have just 2 breakoff waves than 3 breakoff waves. One example is a staggered whacker. Turn one of the red guys into a stinger. Put the remaining 3 red men off the left leg of the stinger. Put the yellow men off the right leg of the red guy docking on the stinger. The yellow whackers now points in the opposite direction as the red whackers. Now both whackers can easily break off simultaneously in the same breakoff wave.

(Alternatively, skip the stinger, and keep the 4 red men where they are, while only moving the yellow men to point in the opposite direction, to take advantage of the breakoff-airspace gap between the red men, but it may be a little crowded if you don't use stingers to push the whackers slightly further away from the base, to allow a safe 2-wave breakoff for a 30-way. My opinion is, use the stingers off a 6-way base, if you choose good jumpers, then it kind of helps strengthen the 6-way star base, especially if you plan to use a 40-way that is similiar to this 30-way)

Don't forget to design a breakoff diagram. Many good big ways have a breakoff diagram. Examples are 6000', then 5500', and a 4500' wave. Sometimes outer waves are spaced 500 feet apart, with the final wave spaced 1000' (tell everyone not to overtake the previous wave, and tell everyone in the base to do a very short track). If you reduce the breakoff waves to 2 and still get good easy radial separation for all the outers, then you can gain an extra 3 seconds of skydive to allow the 30-way to build, by having only two breakoff waves, with just a 5500' breakoff wave and a 4500' breakoff wave. Most good 30-ways seem to be structured around a two-stage breakoff.

That said, if you're doing a higher-than-usual-altitude skydive or the jumpers are good at big ways, then 3 stages for a 30-way is just fine, but it's useful to design for fewer stages, as it is easier to add extra levels when you expand the record. If you're doing growth of a record, make sure your expanded formation diagrams (30, then 40, then 50, then 60) are very similiar to each other, this often can easily be done by adding additional whacker layers outside the base. (To a certain limit, anyway)

[happythoughts 0]

Number 5 will have less traffic issues.
Everyone on the whackers can fly directly to their slot.

(edited to add)
Number 6 looks like it would have the tendency to
spin that base too easily. It could make breakoff complicated. (If it didn't build, people may be confused at breakoff time. A line may over-track another.)

Breakoff -
Everyone but the base leaves at 5500 or 6000 ft.
Base leaves at 4500 ft.
Nobody opens above 3000 ft.

Important - it will be crowded. Canopies will opening closer than usual.
After opening, everyone continues to fly their canopy
away from the center for 10 seconds while watching
for other canopies.
(If someone has a problem on opening, they may
be flying out of control and into nearby jumpers)
After 10 seconds, then they can mess with sliders, booties, or whatever.

[mdrejhon 8]

Quote

(edited to add)
Number 6 looks like it would have the tendency to
spin that base too easily. It could make breakoff complicated.

My suggested modifications to number 6 should, in theory, solve both problems.

Good point about spinning the base, that's a concern to examine too. That may make #5 better than the unmodified #6 for that.

(That said, the OP wanted something expandable, and I had immediately noticed #5 looked harder to expand to a 40-way and then 50-way, but you could simply move the whacker to the outer stinger and add whacker layers)

Actually, I think my suggested modification makes it look like a hybrid between number 5 and number 6. Any other people's opinion about my suggested modification? (Perhaps I need to draw a diagram) I want to hear from experienced organizers too.

[kallend 1,853]

Quote

Number 5 will have less traffic issues.
Everyone on the whackers can fly directly to their slot.

(edited to add)
Number 6 looks like it would have the tendency to
spin that base too easily. .

One of the nice things about whackers is that there is only a limited amount of force that can be transmitted through the one point of contact with the center of the formation.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kemaljump 0]

Thank you so much again guys... :)
I am very very happy because all of yours' replies and comments are very valuable for me and I have learned so many things from your explanations... So I can trust myself to organize about 30-40-50 way figures right now with those knowlages... And I am keeping all the knowlages you have written here in my mind...
So, after your explanations here is my break off and parachute opening plan...
First of all I have to mention that most of our skydivers that we are planing to build for this 30 way are at about 500-1000 jumps but have very little experinces about building big ways... 20 of tham before (including 2 cameramen), we have built 2 times 18 ways (which, one of those 16 way moment foto is at attachment, 2 guys were late) but it was very simple star with 6 guys at base center and 6 zippers in between each person at base.... and our break off plan was simple also... so I have written this just to mention the experience levels of most of skydivers we plan to build new 30 way... But I trust in their skydiving skills and abilities about formatin skydiving and maneuvers in the sky...
Anyway... I want to explain my break off and opening plan now.. (We plan to build #6 formation after your explanations)
For the outer whackers, break off altitude will be 6000 feet... and they will fly track away 1000 feet and they will open their parachutes at 5000 feet... Also at this break off altitude (6000 feet), one of the skydivers at base (1 of 6 guys) directly open his parachut at his point and will leave from the base...
For the second (inner) whackers, break off altitude will be 5000 feet... and they will fly and track away 1000 feet and they will open their parachutes at 4000 feet... And again at this second break off altitude (5000 feet) one of the remainin 5 base skydivers will open his parachut at his point and will leave from the group...
Last step is for the reaminin 4 guys at base... their break off altitude will be 4000 feet and will fly and track away about 500 feet and they will open their parachutes at 3500 feet...
We are planning to use 2 cameraman for this 30 way and first cameraman will break off with 1st whackers group and track away with them to open his parachutes at the opening altitude of first whackers which is 5000 feet... (at about 7000 feet, this cameraman will go down to the level of 30 way group altitude and fall with them even, and will take the group's pics and wievs at even position to avoid from that when the outer whackers start break off and track away, so they can see hem in front of them at theri level)
The last cameraman will fall down with the last 4 guys base group untill their break off time reaches and when they break off and the center of the group will be free he will open his parachute at about 4000 feet...
This is my plan for brak off and opening... I know that I am not that much of experienced for big ways but when I think about the experinces of my skydivers I thought maybe this plan will work... the fundementel aim of my plan is to add extra altitude differences for opening parachutes...
So I am looking forward to your comments about my plan... I will be very happy about it...
And after I will be sure of my break off and parachute opening plan, I want to tell you about the aircraft formation, altitude, skydivers in aircrafts, exit and building the formation in the sky plans if you don't get bored of me and my questions... THANKS AGAIN SO MUCH.. I APPRECIATE all of YOU...
blue skies...

[kallend 1,853]

Quote

For the outer whackers, break off altitude will be 6000 feet... and they will fly track away 1000 feet and they will open their parachutes at 5000 feet... Also at this break off altitude (6000 feet), one of the skydivers at base (1 of 6 guys) directly open his parachut at his point and will leave from the base...
For the second (inner) whackers, break off altitude will be 5000 feet... and they will fly and track away 1000 feet and they will open their parachutes at 4000 feet... And again at this second break off altitude (5000 feet) one of the remainin 5 base skydivers will open his parachut at his point and will leave from the group...
Last step is for the reaminin 4 guys at base... their break off altitude will be 4000 feet and will fly and track away about 500 feet and they will open their parachutes at 3500 feet...

The whackers need to track much farther than that to get adequate horizontal separation. As Happythoughts wrote: "Nobody opens above 3000 ft."

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mdrejhon 8]

Quote

For the outer whackers, break off altitude will be 6000 feet... and they will fly track away 1000 feet and they will open their parachutes at 5000 feet... Also at this break off altitude (6000 feet), one of the skydivers at base (1 of 6 guys) directly open his parachut at his point and will leave from the base...
For the second (inner) whackers, break off altitude will be 5000 feet... and they will fly and track away 1000 feet and they will open their parachutes at 4000 feet... And again at this second break off altitude (5000 feet) one of the remainin 5 base skydivers will open his parachut at his point and will leave from the group...

That's dangerous!

A typical 100-way such as the ones at the Perris Big Ways uses a system similiar to the following:

1st wave breakoff 6500, pull at 2500 feet
2nd wave breakoff 5500, pull at 2800 feet
3rd wave breakoff 4500, pull no lower than 3000 feet

(Note: Add about 500 feet to all altitudes if you're uncomfortable about 2500 feet pull altitudes)

It has proven time again and again, that outer waves must PULL THE LOWEST for best safety.

The 400-way World Record (World Team) also used this kind "outers track the longest and pull the lowest" of system, as well. It adds both horizontal AND vertical separation, and gives outers more time to track as far as possible away from the inner, and causes a lot less problems with congestion as well, because the outers are already very far away when the inners open.

I suggest creating a BREAKOFF DIAGRAM. These supplemental diagrams are starting to become standard practice nowadays in many modern big way events. For example, check the photographs of the Perris 100-way break off diagrams.

[mdrejhon 8]

Quote

The whackers need to track much farther than that to get adequate horizontal separation. As Happythoughts wrote: "Nobody opens above 3000 ft."

Good rule of thumb, but it doesn't have to be hard-and-fast rule for the base (last breakoff wave). The base can open above 3000 feet -- the base should track relatively short as to not to interfere with the previous breakoff wave.

Outer breakoff wave tracks as long as possible.... Inside (base) breakoff wave tracks as short as safe.... This gives more room for the middle breakoff waves. By this virtue, members of the base is allowed to pull above 3000 feet. "pull when in clear airspace" is the rule of thumb for base breakoffs at Perris Big Way events, JFTC, and other P3-team www.p3skydiving.com organized big ways.

I think some countries may not generally have a standard 2500 pull altitude for outers, so recalibrating all the breakoff altitudes and all the pull altitudes an additional 500 feet of safety, would turn this rule to "pull no higher than 3500 feet". However, in general, for worldwide consistency, I recommend the "pull no higher than 3000 feet" for all waves except the inside (base).

[kemaljump 0]

Okay guys...
I guess I will do modification and change my break off and parachut opening diagram plan as you have told me... so the first whackers wave will break off 6000 feet and track about 2500 feet and will open their parachutes at 3300 feet, second whackers will break off at 5000 feet and track away 1500 feet and will open their parachutes at 3500 feet, and last group will break off at 4000 feet and track 500 feet and will open theri parachutes at 3500 feet also... I guess, this one is true, right? Thanks a lot again for your recommendations and all of these knowlages...

And, soon, I will put here and share with you the aircraft flying plan, skydivers in aircraft plan, exit timing and exit positions plan, navigation under canopy plan, safety rules and so on..

[mdrejhon 8]

Quote

Okay guys...
I guess I will do modification and change my break off and parachut opening diagram plan as you have told me... so the first whackers wave will break off 6000 feet and track about 2500 feet and will open their parachutes at 3300 feet, second whackers will break off at 5000 feet and track away 1500 feet and will open their parachutes at 3500 feet, and last group will break off at 4000 feet and track 500 feet and will open theri parachutes at 3500 feet also... I guess, this one is true, right? Thanks a lot again for your recommendations and all of these knowlages...

And, soon, I will put here and share with you the aircraft flying plan, skydivers in aircraft plan, exit timing and exit positions plan, navigation under canopy plan, safety rules and so on..

That's safer. but you might avoid saying "track about 2500 feet" and such -- I have never heard of people say that in big way events, people can't judge tracking distance well but they can do their best track, or sense the length of their track. Also, 6000 feet breakoff is very high for a 30-way, I have broken off a 30-way at just 5000 feet, and a 20-way at just 4500 feet. But I if you're mandating higher minimum pull altitudes for safety margin, a higher breakoff is fine.

Just say "Breakoff at 6000 feet, and keep trackin, pull no higher than 3200 feet. This is a long track, and will last approximately 20 second"

Regardless of what you do, talk to several experienced big way jumpers (and organizers, if possible) to make sure that they think your plans make sense -- especially jumpers that visit Perris 100-way camps, and know how the people there organize them. You need to be absolutely sure that all safety aspects are covered, and not rely 100% on dropzone.com