Theory of "the hill"

[VTmotoMike08 0]

I have a few questions regarding the launch of a 4-way (or base of something larger) that I wanted to ask.

First, in a good 4-way otter exit, is one of the goals to minimize the time spent on the hill? I can see how this would be helpful, to get your formation pointing straight to the ground ASAP, but if you can turn points on the hill right out the door, why rush getting off of it? Is it even possible to change the amount of time spent on the hill?

Secondly, assuming the answer to the first question is yes, what is the best way to do this? Is it better to have the person flying tail weigh it down from the back or to have the point block as much of the wind as possible so that it never goes steep? Maybe a combination of both?

The reason I ask is that I was flying point for the first (ya... beer) time this weekend and it actually worked out very well, I could feel the formation spent less time than ever on the hill and was going straight down after what felt like just a second or two. I am a bigger jumper (6'2", 225 OTD) and I have usually been told to go to the tail slot because I could "weigh" the formation down and level it out sooner. But if I can get out and catch a lot of prop blast from the point position and level it out that way, would this be better? Assume that, for the sake of discussion, all other factors (team mates body positions) are neutral.

I hope my question makes sense, any thoughts are appreciated.

[rehmwa 2]

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I hope my question makes sense, any thoughts are appreciated.

A lot of things on that post conflict. It's hard to tell what you mean by "level it out", one example:

1 - you mention getting pointed "straight to the ground"
2 - you mention getting the tail 'down', and also catching the prop blast from the point

these two things are the opposite relative to the ground - number 2 is 'ok' for practical purposes. Number 1 will cause all sorts of heart ache and problems. Especially levelness issues. I'll attach a pic for that later.

In any case,
The ground doesn't matter - the direction of the wind matters.

If you want to reduce the time on the hill, yet stay oriented into the relative wind, you have one solution - slow down the airplane on jump run. I don't advise it.

Fly relative to the wind and ignore the ground. Look at each other and feel the wind, ignore the ground -

the only caviat on the hill is that gravity is still there and seems, (to me), to have the most effect on keeping pieces proximate to each other.

Somewhere here is an Airspeed article on exits - reading that is better than any advice I can give or most of what you'll get as replies

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[VTmotoMike08 0]

Thanks, I think that answers most of my questions.

But I am still not sure about one thing- why is there a popular perception that you should put your heaviest jumper in the tail position? I have heard the phrase "pull the formation down" from several different skydivers. Perhaps this is referring to likeliness in preventing a funnel? But they could all be wrong. I certainly don't mind flying tail tho.

I have a bad feeling that all my posts sound like a confused idiot but I need to get a few things sorted out in my head

[rehmwa 2]

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why is there a popular perception that you should put your heaviest jumper in the tail position?

I don't know if there's a good reason or not. Here's a couple thoughts

1 - there is still gravity, so having him on tail will help 'stand up' the formation on exit (the wind is coming at you nearly vertical to the plane, so you want the formation on its 'side' initially - not exactly, but that's the gist)

2 - He's heavy, therefore he's slow. Dropping down and presenting when already outside the plane is perceived as pretty easy.

3 - He's BIG, so get him out of the plane so the IC and the point have more room to clear the door. (I use this one).

If the big guy is athletic, I like them in the IC and I give them the count. A good launch by the IC goes a long way to making the formation stable immediately - so why not use his mass. (most teams have the count with the OC.....)

good questions -

edit: anyone should be able to launch from any position. You aren't 'getting out of the airplane' so much as 'athletically putting the team into the relative wind'. If you are truly getting into the wind correctly, it shouldn't matter much at all. I'd rather pick slot assignments based on strengths in flying styles AND exit preferences.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[GQ_jumper 4]

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why is there a popular perception that you should put your heaviest jumper in the tail position?

I don't know if there's a good reason or not. Here's a couple thoughts

1 - there is still gravity, so having him on tail will help 'stand up' the formation on exit (the wind is coming at you nearly vertical to the plane, so you want the formation on its 'side' initially - not exactly, but that's the gist)

2 - He's heavy, therefore he's slow. Dropping down and presenting when already outside the plane is perceived as pretty easy.

3 - He's BIG, so get him out of the plane so the IC and the point have more room to clear the door. (I use this one).

If the big guy is athletic, I like them in the IC and I give them the count. A good launch by the IC goes a long way to making the formation stable immediately - so why not use his mass. (most teams have the count with the OC.....)

good questions -

edit: anyone should be able to launch from any position. You aren't 'getting out of the airplane' so much as 'athletically putting the team into the relative wind'. If you are truly getting into the wind correctly, it shouldn't matter much at all. I'd rather pick slot assignments based on strengths in flying styles AND exit preferences.

You know I've heard that same one a lot and I very much disagree with the whole "put the heavy guy on tail" train of thought. Ideally everyone should be flying on the relative wind as soon as they exit, there should be no "weighing down", the only reason I could see a need for that is if people up front are having weak exits. I have people quite often trying to put me on tail because I'm the bigger guy in the group, well I used to be at least, I also happen to usually be the most athletic and prefer the OC exit because I have a solid ability get up and into the wind, but I'll fly whatever, 4 way is always fun!!

Personally I think when choosing slots you should do it according the each persons flying style, the exits will come with practice, I personally switched from OC to tail at the recommendation of a friend along with one of my coaches(thanks Andy H. and Liz) because I'm agressive and powerful with the way I fly so I never let myself get hosed at the back of the formation. Just my .02 though, take it with a grain of salt, I only have 400 of these skyjumpin thingies

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[kallend 1,632]

I defer to you and Bill on the practical issues, as I devote a lot of effort to NOT being part of linked exits!

From an aerodynamics/physics point of view it doesn't matter where the "big guy" is as long as everyone is a good skydiver and starts flying immediately on being presented to the wind. If there is any doubt about this, though, having the mass concentration already in a stable position (likely to be tail) is going to be beneficial in damping out wobbles etc. "Dragging down" is not going to happen (because Newton's 3rd law says the others will be "dragging up" just as hard if linked together).

What Bill said about time spent on the hill is completely in line with the known laws of physics. There's not much to be done about it unless you fly off level with respect to the relative wind.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[VTmotoMike08 0]

Thanks everyone, the last few posts have really put into words what I was trying to understand the whole time. I now realize how silly it sounds to try to get off the hill early

[bob.dino 0]

You know what's irritating? When you see a thread, read the initial post and go "ooh, I can contribute to this!", then realize that everyone else has already answered the questions posed.

Damn.

[piisfish 135]

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2 - you mention getting the tail 'down', and also catching the prop blast from the point

your point has a prop ??

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[GQ_jumper 4]

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2 - you mention getting the tail 'down', and also catching the prop blast from the point

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your point has a prop ??

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Yours doesn't?? Why do you think points get all those flashy solo moves

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[rehmwa 2]

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You know I've heard that same one a lot and I very much disagree with the whole "put the heavy guy on tail" train of thought.

The only really practical reason for me is to get the big guys outside the plane so the inside people have more room to clear the door.


piis - We try to get our point to wear a propellor beanie, but he doesn't think it looks cool.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[GQ_jumper 4]

The only really practical reason for me is to get the big guys outside the plane so the inside people have more room to clear the door.

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Try taking for guys with MC-4's out the door of an otter!! I was the smallest one in the 4 way, I weigh 185 without gear typically, everyone else in the group was 210+

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[kallend 1,632]

Since we are allowed to talk theory in this thread

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[GQ_jumper 4]

So your control will feel least "crisp" (for want of a better word) around 3 - 4 seconds after exit.

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So in other words, key fast

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[rehmwa 2]

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So your control will feel least "crisp" (for want of a better word) around 3 - 4 seconds after exit.

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So in other words, key fast

Yup - 3 or 4 seconds into the dive, that 5th point does feel a bit sluggish

I wish

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[GQ_jumper 4]

In Reply To
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So your control will feel least "crisp" (for want of a better word) around 3 - 4 seconds after exit.

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In Reply To
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So in other words, key fast

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Yup - 3 or 4 seconds into the dive, that 5th point does feel a bit sluggish

I wish

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Don't you mean 5th page

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[rehmwa 2]

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Don't you mean 5th page

I don't want to get silly.
Unless you mean those one point dives you do.

Star, flash, Star, flash, Star, flash (repeat as necessary)

(of course the omission penalties really kill your score)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[champu 1]

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Don't you mean 5th page

I don't want to get silly.
Unless you mean those one point dives you do.

Star, flash, Star, flash, Star, flash (repeat as necessary)

(of course the omission penalties really kill your score)

Also known as "mmmmm...." simpson>