Help needed: How to put large formations in the door(s)?

[Merkur 1]

Hi all you organizers!

I wonder if there are some simple tricks about how to put larger formations in a reasonable exit line-up, as from some size on, the door becomes to small, to put all of them in.

Any tips, tricks and hints are welcome.

M.

vSCR No.94
Don't dream your life - live your dream!

[kallend 1,635]

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Hi all you organizers!

I wonder if there are some simple tricks about how to put larger formations in a reasonable exit line-up, as from some size on, the door becomes to small, to put all of them in.

Any tips, tricks and hints are welcome.

M.

I thought YOU were on the 400 way! How much larger are you suggesting?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Merkur 1]

Well, I know how to put these formations in C-130s, but I still have some issues with all these small planes like Beech, Casa, SkyVan and TwinOtter.

Another issue: I moved from Cessna 206 more or less right to C-130, so I am missing a bit the experience of inbetween sized planes

And finally, this time I was just participating, not organzing

M.

vSCR No.94
Don't dream your life - live your dream!

[kallend 1,635]

Quote

Well, I know how to put these formations in C-130s, but I still have some issues with all these small planes like Beech, Casa, SkyVan and TwinOtter.

Another issue: I moved from Cessna 206 more or less right to C-130, so I am missing a bit the experience of inbetween sized planes

And finally, this time I was just participating, not organzing

M.

WeLL...

On a Twin Otter it is customary to have maybe 5 floaters (the number depends on things like the size of the "camera" step). Then three rows jamming the door (typically three in the front row, two in the second and three in the third, although other variations like 3-3-2 are possible, or 3-3-3 if no-one is huge). The remaining divers line up round the corner, usually single file but if no benches are present, two rows works too.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jverley 0]

I always try to envision the formation 2 seconds out the door. Where should they be?
Put people where the need to be 2 seconds after launch. The people on the bottom (floater side) of the formation are outside, base to divers inside.

I have successfully put 9 floaters (including super floaters, not including camera) outside a Twin Otter.

The key to floating a side door aircraft is getting the front floaters forward. The front floaters (at least the first 1-2) need to have nothing more than their foot aft of the door frame. Use the flap arm for leverage. Super floaters need to be at full arm extension.

A floater can share the step with the camera, if possible. Stand on his/her foot. You're probably paying for him/her so make him/her earn it. In Holllywood, the movie makers pay the actors. I am not sure why skydivers do it backwards.

Divers should be hips forward and ready to blast through the door. The bent-over airspeed method works if you are only doing 8 but it slows the exit if you are doing larger. Remember, fast exit=fast first point.

I line up 3-3-3 for divers. Yes, the guy in the corner has a chance of hitting the bulkhead, but ....you are the organizer and you are not going to get that slot. Actually, I enforce that the exit must move forward through the door. 3-3-3 plus 7 floaters all moving together ensures a 16-way right out the door.

Good luck. PM me if you have any questions.

John
Arizona Hiking Trails

[kallend 1,635]

Quote

I always try to envision the formation 2 seconds out the door. Where should they be?
Put people where the need to be 2 seconds after launch. The people on the bottom (floater side) of the formation are outside, base to divers inside.

I have successfully put 9 floaters (including super floaters, not including camera) outside a Twin Otter.

The key to floating a side door aircraft is getting the front floaters forward. The front floaters (at least the first 1-2) need to have nothing more than their foot aft of the door frame. Use the flap arm for leverage. Super floaters need to be at full arm extension.

A floater can share the step with the camera, if possible. Stand on his/her foot. You're probably paying for him/her so make him/her earn it. In Holllywood, the movie makers pay the actors. I am not sure why skydivers do it backwards.

Divers should be hips forward and ready to blast through the door. The bent-over airspeed method works if you are only doing 8 but it slows the exit if you are doing larger. Remember, fast exit=fast first point.

I line up 3-3-3 for divers. Yes, the guy in the corner has a chance of hitting the bulkhead, but ....you are the organizer and you are not going to get that slot. Actually, I enforce that the exit must move forward through the door. 3-3-3 plus 7 floaters all moving together ensures a 16-way right out the door.

Good luck. PM me if you have any questions.

If it's a big way I'd assume more than one plane, in which case 7 or more floaters would not generally be an advantage and on a trail plane probably would be a disadvantage.

You only have to have one person hit the door frame to negate any advantage you might get with a 3-3-3 lineup.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[McDuck 0]

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A floater can share the step with the camera, if possible. Stand on his/her foot. You're probably paying for him/her so make him/her earn it. In Holllywood, the movie makers pay the actors. [B]I am not sure why skydivers do it backwards.[/B]

I know this was probably a rhetorical question, but I wanted to comment briefly. At least from my perspective (and I usually am not comped my video jumps on big ways or 4-way teams jumps), when I'm asked to film for a large group it's taking me from something else I'd rather be doing for that jump. For most dedicated videographers this would probably be a paid jump for a tandem or other student jump.

I've shared the camera step on a Twin Otter as well as a PAC. I generally tend to drag my left leg and sliding my right foot as far to the rear of the step as possible. If I can keep my left hand in the upper right corner of the door frame, cool. If not, I'll tend to rest it on the shoulder or pack tray of the person I'm sharing the step with while my right hand holds the handle or bar provided. Generally, there's usually little relative wind to fight once the front and super-front floaters climb out. I've never had to have someone stand on my foot.

Kevin - Sonic Beef #5 - OrFun #28
"I never take myself too seriously, 'cuz everybody know fat birds don't fly." - FLC
Online communities: proof that people never mature much past high school.

[kallend 1,635]

Quote

Quote

A floater can share the step with the camera, if possible. Stand on his/her foot. You're probably paying for him/her so make him/her earn it. In Holllywood, the movie makers pay the actors. [B]I am not sure why skydivers do it backwards.[/B]

I know this was probably a rhetorical question, but I wanted to comment briefly. At least from my perspective (and I usually am not comped my video jumps on big ways or 4-way teams jumps), when I'm asked to film for a large group it's taking me from something else I'd rather be doing for that jump. For most dedicated videographers this would probably be a paid jump for a tandem or other student jump.

I've shared the camera step on a Twin Otter as well as a PAC. I generally tend to drag my left leg and sliding my right foot as far to the rear of the step as possible. If I can keep my left hand in the upper right corner of the door frame, cool. If not, I'll tend to rest it on the shoulder or pack tray of the person I'm sharing the step with while my right hand holds the handle or bar provided. Generally, there's usually little relative wind to fight once the front and super-front floaters climb out. I've never had to have someone stand on my foot.

Well, maybe you haven't seen some of the very small camera steps out there. I've been on steps that are 3" wide , and steps that are 15" wide (Chicago). Steps with just a short spike to hold for a handle (Perris), and steps with a 12" handle (Spaceland) and steps with two handles and an external bar over the door (Chicago).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[PhreeZone 15]

Anyone that tries to share the step with me on one of those planes with the stupid loop handles and the step that is only like 3*4" is in for a world of hurt since I'm not holding on by 1 finger to make them more comfortable. Want to share the step on a plane like CSS's Otter fleet with the floater bar going all the wat to the camera step? No problem. Pegs that stick up... better work out the hand position on the ground.

To line up an exit on a CASA its base in the center 3 wide, 2 floaters on the bar off their back, Camera beside the floater. Line the rest up 3-4 wide to the lines. 18 beyond the first line, 24 past the second. Flip up all the seats. Have the rest on the line in the middle ready to really dive it since its going to be a 3-5 step running exit and dive.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[rehmwa 2]

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Anyone that tries to share the step with me ....and the step that is only like 3*4" is in for a world of hurt

Tough guys, eh?

I've never seen a step so small that two people can't share it. As long as they talk it a bit ahead of time. As you note, a good handle for the hand helps. 3" x 4" step is huge and not hard to share if both people are strong enough to get in place and not rush the other. I've even just used just the edge of a tiny step and have had no trouble staying on and launching clean.

The biggest issue is people not thinking when the door opens and just putting their stupid feet all over the little step instead of the edge or only half (that's the camera guy). For the rear float, he just needs to hold his horses and lets the camera guy have the extra couple seconds to get his foot adjusted to make room on the front edge of the step (unless he's the guy in the first half of this paragraph), then it's not an issue - if they are just chasing you out to the step, not giving you time to set your stance, and then shift that foot backwards to the rear of the little step, then just standing on your foot, then I see your issue. But it's about a little planning and courtesy between the cameraguy and the rear float - either or both can be guilty of not helping the cause.

I would suggest to someone that can't figure this out go rock climbing, you need next to nothing to stand out there.

There's not ever a reason to have to stand on another's foot as long as both people are wearing reasonable shoes.

Talking over how to share a hand peg is a great point.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jwynne 0]

Two big differences in how you do this. One plane load, VS formations. With a one plane load there are a lot of benefits to getting the max number of people in the floater lineup and door jam. You've got to have pretty heads up people to do it well. Get no one smashed into the door and no one deployed off the floater bar. Most of us have seen both happen.

The other situation is formation loads. There it's not beneficial to jam the door as tight as you can. You need a fast efficient line up so that all planes will be ready to go at the same time. Theres' a lot that goes into organizing that line up, but the comment, visualize where everyone should be 2-4 seconds out the door works well.

Janna