It's almost time....World Meet 2006, who's it gonna be?

[GQ_jumper 4]

If you took Eliana (US team), Natahsa (US team), Arianna (Italy), Ditta (Norway) ect and put them on the same team...They would kick ass. Not just female ass, but male ass as well.

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Ron is absolutely right, you can't count women out because they are not physically as strong, IMO an all female team made up of the women mention in Ron's post would probably kick the crap out of the majority of the top male teams in the world. You say they aren't as strong but take into account how much lighter they are than men, and last time I checked it's a lot easier to move quick when you aren't heavy. i've recently dropped some weight and my speed has nearly doubled.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[Alienangel 0]

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Goes against your argument here as well :
"That is not to say that women are, as individuals, less talented than men, simply that, due to sheer numbers of female skydivers in relation to men, there are fewer.....

That's not my argument so don't put words in my mouth. I said skydiving at a 21+ has a lot to do with muscle. Men have more of that than women. Or do you also dispute this?

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To say that women are equal to men is "complaining"???? WOW.

Obviously that is also not what I said. Some people like to complain about the existence of the Women's class (sometimes on threads that have nothing to do with the subject), people like you, Ron. I happen to think women are 'equal' to men in many ways. However laws of nature dictate they are not equally as strong as men. This is not a value judgement, simply a fact. Until women-only teams are doing 20+ averages (I hope to see this and happen to believe it is possible, although as yet is is NOT proven, no matter what people like to foresee or assume) I don't see any reason to believe this is an insignificant fact.

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The problem is raw numbers, not weakness based on sex. It is only because the smaller number of females that jump leads to the smaller number of female RW types, that leads to the smaller number of serious 4way types that there are not more top level females....

Perhaps. But I still dispute that women are as physically strong as men and I believe a 21+ demands very high levels of muscular strength and power.

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Its not about what is between their legs.

As far as this comment goes...please, let's not be silly. Vaginas may be made of muscle but you know full well this is not the type of muscle my post refers to.

To GQ-Jumper:

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You say they aren't as strong but take into account how much lighter they are than men, and last time I checked it's a lot easier to move quick when you aren't heavy. i've recently dropped some weight and my speed has nearly doubled.

Yes true, but strength in order to move others around at speed is also an issue. If speed was all about size, women would be the fastest runners and hurdlers in the world. They aren't.

We are a young sport, our top level competitors have not yet got close to maximising personal performances. As it stands women's teams consistently under-perform compared to men's - let's make a judgement call on binning categories when we have a little more data to go on.

And one last thing. On this little matter of Ron's:

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If you took Eliana (US team), Natahsa (US team), Arianna (Italy), Ditta (Norway) ect and put them on the same team...They would kick ass. Not just female ass, but male ass as well.

Yes, they would kick male ass. But would they kick top level competitor male ass? If you took the world's top male skydivers and matched them against this fantasy team of top chicks of yours, I know who the smart money would be on.

Eliana, Natasha and Ditta all fly point I believe, a typically fast, precision-oriented slot which generally requires less physical strength in piece-moves. Natasha is a great skydiver but she is also on a player-coach team as well as being a point flyer. That means the others guys are paid in one way or another to be on her team (awesome as it is). Yes, Ditta did a 20 average recently, which is great, but which was also at 'the fastest draw I have ever seen' (your quote I think, Ron?). Arianna rocks and so does Lise but if you put a combo of these guys up against Mark Kirkby, Kirk Verner, Craig Girard, Johnny Eagle, Gary Smith or some other set of 4 of the top males... Well, it would certainly be interesting, but I know where I'd put my cash.

AA

[GQ_jumper 4]

Eliana, Natasha and Ditta all fly point I believe, a typically fast, precision-oriented slot which generally requires less physical strength in piece-moves

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double check your sources, point flyers turn their share of pieces, not to mention when memory blocks come into play they are the OC.

and on the subject of Natasha, she was on a "PC" team last year, this year they are the national team and it's a different story.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[Ron 7]

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That's not my argument so don't put words in my mouth. I said skydiving at a 21+ has a lot to do with muscle. Men have more of that than women. Or do you also dispute this?

On average, men have more muscle. I only dispute that it requires muscle. I am stronger than Natasha, but she can skydive circles around me. Like I said, the air does not care what is between your legs, only HOW you push the air. To say that strength is a limiting factor is wrong. Eliana, Natasha et al...Are proof of that. I know plenty of guys that are stronger, but those guys would get smoked by these women.

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Obviously that is also not what I said. Some people like to complain about the existence of the Women's class (sometimes on threads that have nothing to do with the subject), people like you, Ron.

Really? Lets look at EXACTLY what you did say. "I often hear people who haven't hit even a 17+ in their own teams complaining that 'women are just as capable as men'..."

It kinda looks like it is EXACTLY what you said.

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However laws of nature dictate they are not equally as strong as men. This is not a value judgement, simply a fact. Until women-only teams are doing 20+ averages (I hope to see this and happen to believe it is possible, although as yet is is NOT proven, no matter what people like to foresee or assume) I don't see any reason to believe this is an insignificant fact.

You think its strength...And you would be wrong. The women doing 20's now are not Hercules.

Even in your own argument right there you contradict yourself. You say they are not as strong and you need strength...then you say you think an all woman team can do a 20+. Do women suddenly get stronger?

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Perhaps. But I still dispute that women are as physically strong as men and I believe a 21+ demands very high levels of muscular strength and power.

Never claimed women are as strong as men. I claimed that it should not matter and I have named women that prove that.

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Yes true, but strength in order to move others around at speed is also an issue. If speed was all about size, women would be the fastest runners and hurdlers in the world. They aren't.

The power comes from defecting air, not muscle.

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We are a young sport, our top level competitors have not yet got close to maximising personal performances. As it stands women's teams consistently under-perform compared to men's - let's make a judgement call on binning categories when we have a little more data to go on.

Sure, but you claim that its about muscle, and there are women that are weaker and can skydive circles around stronger men...so that takes some air out of your theory.

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Yes, they would kick male ass. But would they kick top level competitor male ass?

Only one team will win. I think that the male team would have the edge since quite simply they have more CHANCES of having top level skydivers since there are more male skydivers than female. My proof is the very high number of women that ARE at the top.

It is logical to assume that a smaller pool of available people will bring a smaller pool of top level jumpers.

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Eliana, Natasha and Ditta all fly point I believe, a typically fast, precision-oriented slot which generally requires less physical strength in piece-moves.

I disagree that point requires less strength. Number one, they don't stay point all the time. A slot switch will make them OC. And several blocks are harder on Point than on some other slots. 1,6,8,16,19. Some are equal. 11,12,18,21 are perfectly equal.

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Yes, Ditta did a 20 average recently, which is great, but which was also at 'the fastest draw I have ever seen' (your quote I think, Ron?).

Yep, the fastest draw I have ever seen. Fire did over a 23, Italy did over a 23..Almost a 24...Oh wait, both those teams have females as well huh? Before that draw only one team ever did +23 over 10 rounds. Then at this comp two teams do and one almost does a 24? It is the fastest draw I have ever seen, and the high scores of so many teams prove it. 5 teams had their best meet ever (In this meet two teams broke the world record for 10 rounds...TWO in one meet! Danes did a new national record, Norway new record, Tewaiz tied a record...(I had the old one 2003 15.7)

But the fact that it was fast does not change the fact that the top three teams had a women on them....The top three.

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Arianna rocks and so does Lise but if you put a combo of these guys up against Mark Kirkby, Kirk Verner, Craig Girard, Johnny Eagle, Gary Smith or some other set of 4 of the top males... Well, it would certainly be interesting, but I know where I'd put my cash.

If you put any male teams against that all male line up, I would bet against them.

You are not proving a thing.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Alienangel 0]

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Really? Lets look at EXACTLY what you did say. "I often hear people who haven't hit even a 17+ in their own teams complaining that 'women are just as capable as men'..."

It kinda looks like it is EXACTLY what you said.

Ok since you want to split hairs...I should have added, 'Complaining that the women's category should not exist because women are just as capable as men'. Since the rest of the post was written in that context I thought it was understood...but then I forgot it was you, Ron

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You think its strength...And you would be wrong. The women doing 20's now are not Hercules.

Even in your own argument right there you contradict yourself. You say they are not as strong and you need strength...then you say you think an all woman team can do a 20+. Do women suddenly get stronger?

1 - Yes all women on the 20+ teams get stronger, they work out a lot harder than the men to get a similar result. Men build muscle more easily than women, this is an incontrovertible fact. Remember what Arianne looks like? And have you seen Eliana's biceps lately? They are carrying significantly more muscle than most women and they worked out damn hard to get it.

2 - There are no top teams with more than 1 woman. Perhaps a 20+ team can have one physically weaker member but until I see a full 4-way team at a 20+ comprised only of females I will stick by what I say. And I still think they would be highly unlikely to win a World Championship in an Open Class. A 20 alone is not winning World Meets any more.

3 - I have said I BELIEVE it could be possible (let's face it, it's a nice idea and I'm all for those) to see an all- women's team post a 20+. And unlike you, I don't think you should scrap the female category because of something I simply believe. However my comments about the differences in muscle-building capabilities bewteen sexes are factual and so I think this supports having the Female Class, at least until it is proven that muscle is not a factor - which may never happen.

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I am stronger than Natasha, but she can skydive circles around me.

Look, I understand you are in love with Natasha, and that is very sweet. Yes, she could skydive rings around you. But she has also spent a lot more $$$ on training in the last 4 years than you have. And, no offense, but were I to use this theory as an argument to prove gender superiority I would choose another 20+ competitor, maybe even a small point flyer like Johnny Eagle. Would she 'skydive circles' around him? How about Gary Smith? Jack Jeffries? What about Thomas Hughes? Fire are doing a higher average than most teams out there but that doesn't mean another player on the point would not make the team even stronger.

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I disagree that point requires less strength. Number one, they don't stay point all the time. A slot switch will make them OC. And several blocks are harder on Point than on some other slots. 1,6,8,16,19. Some are equal. 11,12,18,21 are perfectly equal.

So if it doesn't make any difference (and you seem to be suggesting all slots require the same characteristics or skills, which is naive at best, defensive at worst) then why are most of the top chicks in the point slot? Coincidence? Especially when you consider WERE IT NOT FOR THE STRENGTH ISSUE it would probably make more sense to have the typically shorter female player in the centre?

The point slot is typically more of a precision solo-flying slot (see 2, 3, 4, 13, 20, 22) and generally requires less piece-move work. Much of the piece-flying (especially on the back) requires more strength than on the front and definitely in point. If you contradict that you are basically contradicting commonly accepted knowledge in competitive skydiving, but you are entitled to make your comments.

Re these blocks which are supposedly 'harder' for point (1,6,8,16,19).

1 - Relatively easy moves for everyone, not much strength required in the centres and tail does the same job as point.
6 - Not especially harder for point than anyone else, single arm grips for point and OC, big deal.
8 - I think tail would argue with you over who has the hardest job on that. Flying a cat just shy of 360 is easier than the front piece move where you are basically just flying your own move? You've got to be kidding!
16 - Everyone is spinning a compress, I don't see why it is any 'harder' for point.
19 - Again a lot harder physical work for the tail (or IC if they are switching to avoid mirrors). The point is really doing very little on the front, flying a double gripped piece like that is nothing compared to spinning a side-body (or a cat).

As far as slot-switching goes, there are 4 in the dive pool meaning in general most of any slot's work is done in their regular slot, as you know.

Frankly I'm surprised you came up with these suggestions Ron. However I do appreciate your defense of the point, as it is my slot, and I like it.

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If you put any male teams against that all male line up, I would bet against them.

You are not proving a thing.

Except that if you took the World's top 4 male skydivers and put them against the World's top 4 female skydivers, the males might win? Why wouldn't this prove a thing? Because you don't like the suggestion?

As skydivers we often lament the lack of external support for our sport in terms of media interest (beyond the usual 'skydiver plummets to death' etc) and sponsorship. We demand to be taken seriously AS A SPORT. And yet people like you simultaneously argue that, although we are a sport, we are NOT LIKE OTHER SPORTS. It doesn't make sense.

Skydiving is 'just pushing air'? Let's remember that 'just pushing' is a physical action that requires muscle to perform.

Is swimming 'just pushing water'? They have female-only events. How about surfing? 'Just manipulating water' too? Snowboarding is 'just sliding over snow'? How easy it all sounds. What about gymnastics? After all these guys are 'just' moving their own bodies, and look at how small the female gymnasts are. Why don't they compete next to the men? What about runners? Again, 'just' pushing themselves away from the track? Footballers, 'just kicking balls'? Discus throwers, 'just throwing stuff'? A rock face 'doesn't care' what's between a climber's legs but they still have separate categories for males and females. Why?

As a competitor, I think your simplistic analysis of what is involved in the sport at the top level is insulting and out-dated. Yes, many female skydivers are as good as many men. And many of the world's top females in running, surfing, ski-ing etc could out-perform many men in the same sport. BUT NOT THE MEN WHO ARE ALSO AT THE TOP OF THE GAME. Hence the existence of female categories. Do we want to be seen as a 'real' sport or should we perpetuate the common misconception held by the general public that skydiving competitions involve jumping out of a plane yelling 'Yippee!' and are won by the person who lands nearest the cross, alive? We are a young sport and we are evolving. Having a female category is a step in the right direction, not the wrong one, as you claim.

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But the fact that it was fast does not change the fact that the top three teams had a women on them....The top three.

Indeed. They had ONE woman on each team. Two of whom were in the point slot. And these 3 teams are not the top 3 teams in the world, they are the top 3 who did this meet. Find me an all-female team doing a 20+ on a medium-paced draw and let's continue the conversation. Until then it remains a nice idea.

[Ron 7]

This whole thing boils down to this.

I think women are equals in skydiving, and you do not.

My first real team had a woman on it (Frost 98). Sally Hathaway. She was picked over several men. She was picked because she could do the job. Gender had nothing to do with her selection. Eliana was picked for her abilities, not for being a woman.

I have seen women skydive faster and better than males. Both US teams have women on them. 4 National teams have women on them. That tells me that a bunch of people don't think that women are weaker.

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Yes all women on the 20+ teams get stronger, they work out a lot harder than the men to get a similar result. Men build muscle more easily than women, this is an incontrovertible fact. Remember what Arianne looks like? And have you seen Eliana's biceps lately? They are carrying significantly more muscle than most women and they worked out damn hard to get it.

Ever notice that most MEN doing top 4way are in better shape than most normal men?

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There are no top teams with more than 1 woman. Perhaps a 20+ team can have one physically weaker member but until I see a full 4-way team at a 20+ comprised only of females I will stick by what I say. And I still think they would be highly unlikely to win a World Championship in an Open Class. A 20 alone is not winning World Meets any more

There are also a TON fewer female skydivers. So it would figure that there were be less women at the top. The fact that both US teams have women, and 4 National teams have women tell me that they are there.

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However my comments about the differences in muscle-building capabilities bewteen sexes are factual and so I think this supports having the Female Class, at least until it is proven that muscle is not a factor - which may never happen

Right, but it may never happen since so few women make it to the top level due to the lower number of females that try.

There are less female AFF instructors...Is that due to women being "weaker" as well?

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And, no offense, but were I to use this theory as an argument to prove gender superiority I would choose another 20+ competitor, maybe even a small point flyer like Johnny Eagle. Would she 'skydive circles' around him? How about Gary Smith? Jack Jeffries? What about Thomas Hughes? Fire are doing a higher average than most teams out there but that doesn't mean another player on the point would not make the team even stronger.

So, why are 4 National teams jumping with women? I would think that if they thought they could do better, that they would try since they all want to win. It makes zero sense to claim that they are hobbling themselves by having a woman on the team.

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So if it doesn't make any difference (and you seem to be suggesting all slots require the same characteristics or skills, which is naive at best, defensive at worst)

I know a little about 4way and I have done 15+ over 10 rounds in three different slots (IC, Tail, Point). I would not say my thoughts are "naive" in reference to the needs of each slot.

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then why are most of the top chicks in the point slot? Coincidence? Especially when you consider WERE IT NOT FOR THE STRENGTH ISSUE it would probably make more sense to have the typically shorter female player in the centre?

Have you been told by them that they were put there since they were weaker?

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As a competitor, I think your simplistic analysis of what is involved in the sport at the top level is insulting and out-dated

As a man I find your views on women to be out dated and insulting.

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Is swimming 'just pushing water'? They have female-only events. How about surfing? 'Just manipulating water' too? Snowboarding is 'just sliding over snow'?How easy it all sounds. What about gymnastics? After all these guys are 'just' moving their own bodies, and look at how small the female gymnasts are. Why don't they compete next to the men? What about runners? Again, 'just' pushing themselves away from the track? Footballers, 'just kicking balls'? Discus throwers, 'just throwing stuff'? A rock face 'doesn't care' what's between a climber's legs but they still have separate categories for males and females. Why?

Notice that in Skydiving women ARE at the top. Not like any of the sports you mentioned. If women were on the top teams, or placing at the top of the sport, then the proof would be they would not need separate classes.

I think that anyone that works hard can make it. I don't hold gender against them like you seem to do. What other things are women less able to do? Office work?

As with that I see no need to discuss this anymore. Like I said, it boils down to I think women are equal, and you think they are not.

I think the fact they are at the top shows that. You think that unless there are 4 women together standing at the top spot it means nothing.

And yes, I do love Natasha...I mean who the hell would not?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rehmwa 2]

{{pokes at the ashes with a stick}}

yep - I think it's out, at least for a little while

(I guess the final opinions, then, would need to come from those team members - male and female - from the that 20+ athlete club. And I bet they are way too smart to voice up in a place like this.)

IMO - from what I've seen of coaches we've used, both male and female, I tend to Ron's opinion, but I've never scored over 17 in a competition round, so I must be just complaining (actually, I consider it a good point, I really am not good enough to evaluate those things that make a difference between a good 17 average person vs a 20+ type). In fact, we just had a new team record last weekend (~!! points from 12K on FMPOE in practice, that's not even half the pace of those guys, so we still have a long ways to go.)

But I still think it's goofy to even imply Natasha as 'hiring' out PCs for an average to be a means to knock her personal achievements. PCs can get you close and training in that environment would be the greatest thing, but she's not 'close' she had to persoanlly step up to cross that line to her current level. Same for all the top competitors of both genders. They are just great athletes in a sport that requires it all at the top - precision, speed and power, mental stability.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Alienangel 0]

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I think women are equals in skydiving, and you do not.

Not necesarily, however I do not think their equal status in terms of individual skydiving strength has been proven yet (we are largely a team sport so it is harder to quantify at this stage in the sport's growth) and therefore I continue to support a female category. You do not.

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There are also a TON fewer female skydivers. So it would figure that there were be less women at the top. The fact that both US teams have women, and 4 National teams have women tell me that they are there.

Yes. And this is a small, growing sport in its infancy. If the sport had many more participants such as ALL the other sports I've mentioned, then I think it would be more easy to tell if there are genuinely differences in individual male and female capabilities. Until then, no reason to abandon the Female Category, our field of reference is too small to say with clarity that male and female capabiltiy is 100% on par. As yet all-female teams under-achieve compared to males. Period.

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Right, but it may never happen since so few women make it to the top level due to the lower number of females that try.

And getting rid of the Female class is going to make this situation even worse.

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I know a little about 4way and I have done 15+ over 10 rounds

Yes I know who you are, I also know a little about 4-way and disagree with you. I have also jumped on both 75% male and 100% female teams and have an additional insight you might be lacking.

(Oh, and 'I could drag my grandmother through a 15, and she's been dead 10 years' - Mark Kirkby, June 2006)

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I don't hold gender against them like you seem to do. What other things are women less able to do? Office work?

Women are less physically strong than men, but I don't hold it against 'them', I applaud the drive and ambition of chicks who do take it to the top despite this. However I also fully support the Female Category for all the reasons stated which you have pretty much chosen to ignore.

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I think women are equal, and you think they are not.

I think women are equal in value but I would be silly if I thought 'they' were equally as physically strong as men. Therefore there is a case for the continuation of the Women's Event. That is all I am saying. Nearly every other sport in the world recognises this fact and I don't think skydiving should be particularly different. However it is a newer sport than most and evolving very rapidly - this has given rise to a specific set of circumstances (such as women being on the top open teams, which is indeed a great thing. Would it last if the sport quadrupled its intake? Maybe. Maybe not.).

Gender differences do exist, especially in the context of an aggressive, physical sport, and ignoring them doesn't make you a feminist, just mistaken.

And by the way I also love Natasha. And Eliana. Alright?

[rehmwa 2]

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Gender differences do exist, especially in the context of an aggressive, physical sport, and ignoring them doesn't make you a feminist, just mistaken.

That's it, Ron's a left wing soft touch. (naively over senstive, and very Polically Correct)

I'm going outside and waiting for the apocalypse. Maybe buy a nice heavy jacket for the cold winter in hell.

Cats and dogs living together, total chaos.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Alienangel 0]

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That's it, Ron's a left wing soft touch. (naively over senstive, and very Polically Correct)

LOL...yeah that's what I figured, amazing what happens to a guy when he gets too close to a hot woman doing a 21+... Bring it on I reckon

[VanillaSkyGirl 6]

AA, I really can appreciate what you have written, especially since you have so much experience in competitive 4-Way.

Personally, I am beginning to learn more advanced blocks and am often learning to fly blocks with men who are much bigger than I am, like GQ_jumper. I am so glad to hear someone in the know state that good, fast (not that I'm THAT fast, yet) 4-Way has a lot to do with strength, as well as skill.

As a tiny person (5 ft and 95ish lbs.), who has always been considered very strong for her size, I feel like I need to continuously work on/improve my overall strength during 4-way, more than anything else. This is especially true with blocks. Btw, I fly Point, as well.

Anyway, I wanted to say that it's been interesting to read this discussion. It makes so much sense. Thanks!

[Ron 7]

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Yes I know who you are, I also know a little about 4-way and disagree with you. I have also jumped on both 75% male and 100% female teams and have an additional insight you might be lacking.

Being male, I have flown with male and female partners. I can't tell the difference between them in the blocks if they are doing the moves correctly.

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However I also fully support the Female Category for all the reasons stated which you have pretty much chosen to ignore.

Nope, you think its only about strength, and I think its about skill.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Alienangel 0]

So have you jumped on a 100% female team Ron?

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Nope, you think its only about strength, and I think its about skill.

Nope back atcha, I think it's about strength AND skill, like pretty much every other sport out there. Go figure.

[Ron 7]

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As a tiny person (5 ft and 95ish lbs.), who has always been considered very strong for her size, I feel like I need to continuously work on/improve my overall strength during 4-way, more than anything else. This is especially true with blocks.

But a 95 pound guy would have the same issues. It's not about sex, its size. A 250 brute would not skydive very well either no matter male or female.

And if you had a team of 95 pounders strength would not matter since the person you would have to move would be the same size/weight.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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So have you jumped on a 100% female team Ron?

That would be impossible since I have a penis. But having been piece partners with both male and female, I can say I see no difference when we are in the air.

Have you jumped on an all male team? Have you been a male with a female and a male piece partner?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mischo 0]

Hi Ron,
Big guys can skydive too! Sometimes whatcha need is a bigger hammer.
Mish

[Alienangel 0]

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But a 95 pound guy would have the same issues. It's not about sex, its size.

It's not about sex or size, it's about skill and strength. A 95 pound guy would have a higher proportion of his body weight comprised of muscle than a typical female would. So would a 250 pound guy. QED he would find it easier to move himself and anyone else around the sky than a female of the exact same weight. Bar those who have worked out to such a degree that they have transcended natural gender boundaries. (This is possible but not usual.) Hence nearly every other sport in the world having Female Categories.

You talk about women needing a 'special category' in skydiving as if it's demeaning, and yet you still say that skydiving falls into a 'special category' in the realm of sports. I fail to find any sense in that.

[VanillaSkyGirl 6]

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But a 95 pound guy would have the same issues. It's not about sex, its size. A 250 brute would not skydive very well either no matter male or female.

How many men that size have you run across in this sport? I am only agreeing that strength is a factor. (Oh, and yes, there are 250 lb. brutes out there.)

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And if you had a team of 95 pounders strength would not matter since the person you would have to move would be the same size/weight.

Hahahaha...that's hilarious. I don't know many people of around my size, who do 4-way. Ron, I fly with whomever is the better flyer for myself to fly with. That is often times larger men, and I am asked to fly with people, not based on my gender or size, but based on my ability and theirs. I want to be able to fly with anyone. That means that I need to continously work on my strength. You may not have to notice or deal with this because you are not as small as I am. That is all that I am saying. Strength is a factor that seems to be very important in 4-way.

[Alienangel 0]

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That means that I need to continously work on my strength. You may not have to notice or deal with this because you are not as small as I am. That is all that I am saying.

Amen to that. Most men don't notice or have to deal with this themselves so some of them don't believe it is an issue. I think it is.

[Ron 7]

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You talk about women needing a 'special category' in skydiving as if it's demeaning

Because I see that it is. Not because of my take, but yours...You claim women don't have the same ability as men. I deisagree.

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and yet you still say that skydiving falls into a 'special category' in the realm of sports

It is special since it does not matter what sex you are. It seems you just want the division for personal reasons.

And I really don't care enough to be bothered with this endless BS.

You like the division, I don't. You think women are not equal, I think they are.

Your opinion vs mine. No one will "win" anything. But having been a man with a male and a female piece partner...I can tell you, I noticed no difference in the air. Sally could move me as well as any other skydiver.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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How many men that size have you run across in this sport?

All this says is YOU don't have a body type that is considered perfect for skydiving. That is not to say WOMEN as a whole don't. You want to claim that women are smaller...OK. But I know a bunch of really big guys that are not perfectly suited for skydiving either.

It goes both ways, too big AND too small. Not just one.

As for how many women you have at your size to jump with...That is a factor of total number of women in the sport. If you had the smae number of men that jump, you would be MUCH more likely to find more people of your size.

Strength can matter, but a woman of average size has enough strength to do just fine. Now the TOP people have to have more...But thats true for both men AND women.

What I find funny is I am arguing that women are equal...Totally equal. And they are arguing that they are not

But if I were to claim they were not as capable....I'd be strung up.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Alienangel 0]

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And I really don't care enough to be bothered with this endless BS.

Come now Ron, you live for this shit

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But having been a man with a male and a female piece partner...I can tell you, I noticed no difference in the air.

..at a 15 average. That's not what we are talking about, we are talking about the cutting edge of the sport, at a 21, 22, 23, 24. I haven't been there, nor have you, and I am sure there are those better qualified than us to get on the bandwagon.

So - I guess we should agree to differ, and I am fine with that. But you have shouted long and loud about doing away with the Female Category and, while I apologise for the hijacking of this thread, I think it's about time we talked about the other side of an argument you insist on resurrecting at every opportunity. Sorry you view it in such simplistic terms (you are pro-equality and I am not, supposedly?) - it's a little more complex than that.

[Ron 7]

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it's a little more complex than that.

So you say...But that does not make it true.

But anyway, we will just have to disagree.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[gaillou 0]

I'm quite surprised by the discussion... but I'm a just a poor stupid frog...

what is the link between strenght and equality???

Men are stronger than women in general, that's a fact and that's what AA is saying... He never said that Men and women weren't equal... they just haven't the same capacities...

We all agree that there are 1 woman in the actual best teams. Do you think that they could produce the same average together? I'm not sure. Maybe Ditta, who's there sometime, could give her opinion...

my view is maybe too simple but I think that a women in a 4 way team bring calm & sensitivity and compensate her lack of strengh (she has it but less). combined with strong guys, it rocks. (the fourth having top skill of course).

+1 for the female class. (the more they are, the best...)

I hope you understood my point of view (if you prefere it in french, juste PM me )

Guillaume

French 4-way & 8-way suporter

[rehmwa 2]

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Hahahaha...that's hilarious. I don't know many people of around my size, who do 4-way.

You could do all the blocks in a 12 foot tunnel - then finish the training session with an 8way. Definite advantage.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants