On the hill

[Red_Skydiver 0]

I've recently started training as part of a junior 4-way team. We fly the exits ok but the second point on the hill is proving more difficult. We don't rush to get the next point in fact we wait until we are sure the exit was stable. Once off the hill we have no problems with fall rates or proximity and the latter part of the skydive is much better than the first part. We obviously want to build more points and the most obvious way to do this would be to start building the second point much sooner. We tried it on our last skydive together but it seemed to cause a problem for at least one of our team (i.e. the ground and horizon are not where they would normally be in relation to the formation). Any tips to getting to the second point quicker?

[bodypilot1 0]

Not to get into great detail, but the slower air on the hill requires a more exagerated body movement and remebering more of where the center of the skydive is , rather then focusing on where your grip is.
Get some coaching from your videos too.
Hope this helps.
-

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[daveb 1]

Much more time is spent on the flat than the hill. There are only ~7 seconds on the hill, but ~28 on the flat in competition, or ~53 from altitude. If you want to pick up alot of points, work on your flat technique. Until you have started to get really consistent on the flat, the hill work can wait.

If you cannot wait, break the first point immediately upon launch, and fly the formation no-contact, without turning points. Look at your cross partners eyes, not the ground or horizon or aircraft or Elvis. Progress slowly by incorporating easy 90 degree turns for one or two, all no contact. Add difficulty as your team gets better in the basics.

[rehmwa 2]

Very true. Also, if your teammate can just ignore the ground and fly the wind. Cross eye contact is huge here, if you look at each other and just fly, it's easier to ignore that temporary odd perspective.

Most times, it helps us to exagerate and try to 'stay steep' extra long really helps, too.

for a new team, all this is easier said than done. Just keep plugging at it.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[bodypilot1 0]

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Until you have started to get really consistent on the flat, the hill work can wait.

Oh how true this statement is!

-

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[Ron 7]

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Until you have started to get really consistent on the flat, the hill work can wait.

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Oh how true this statement is!

the other one I love is when new JR teams want to do vertical moves on blocks that don't need them....People were doing 18 avgs before the vertical photons....They can wait.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rehmwa 2]

If I see Elvis on the hill, I'm looking.

Edit: we are about the same speed on Block 11 vert or not - and 'not' is a ton simpler for us (and we're a pretty middlin' team). and we do leverage verticals quite a bit because they're fun. For 11, though, I'll leave it to the tail piece to kick it under as needed if we cut it too close on a rotation, but the plan is not vert at all.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jverley 0]

Watch your video with attention to the presentation of the entire piece to the relative wind. Just because it does not funnel, does not mean the piece is presented correctly. If you break a piece that is cut into the relative wind you will likely end up with bodies everywhere.

As suggested, flying no-contact will immediately show how dependent you are to hanging on!

John
Arizona Hiking Trails

[dgskydive 0]

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Also, if your teammate can just ignore the ground and fly the wind. Cross eye contact is huge here, if you look at each other and just fly, it's easier to ignore that temporary odd perspective.

True! Another reason that proper eye contact is so important. My best flying on the hill is always when I see nothing but my partners eyes. If you focus on the horizon and think about trying to fly on the angle of the hill it is almost impossible. Your mind says "Hey this isn't right, you should be at this angle.", and that is the way you fly. By keeping eyes locked with your partner and being real aggresive with the moves it helps to keep you all on the same plain and moving to the center and keeps you from looking at the horizon.

Dom

[dgskydive 0]

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Just because it does not funnel, does not mean the piece is presented correctly. If you break a piece that is cut into the relative wind you will likely end up with bodies everywhere.

Very true. Nothing like breaking on the hill with tension and watching 4 bodies go in 4 differnt directions. All you can do at that point is say "oh shit" and get it back together as fast as ya can.

Dom

[dgskydive 0]

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the other one I love is when new JR teams want to do vertical moves on blocks that don't need them....People were doing 18 avgs before the vertical photons....They can wait.

I agree and disagree. If the people are pretty heads up and have good skills, I don't see a problem with learning verts right away. My team can probably do them just as fast with out the Vertical move but, the thinking is way learn it twice? Of course we have the luxury of going to the tunnel and learing the two pieces and then putting it together in the sky. I took the approach of learning vert's with these guys right from the start and it has paid off big in our first meet.

Dom

[Ron 7]

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I agree and disagree. If the people are pretty heads up and have good skills, I don't see a problem with learning verts right away. My team can probably do them just as fast with out the Vertical move but, the thinking is way learn it twice? Of course we have the luxury of going to the tunnel and learing the two pieces and then putting it together in the sky. I took the approach of learning vert's with these guys right from the start and it has paid off big in our first meet.

If you can do it just as fast without the vert....Why risk it? Most people do it just cause its cool.

Airspeed was doing an 18 before they were doing it vertical....They HAD to do it vertical to shave that .2 seconds off of it. You don't. you said its probley as fast either way.

As for the tunnel...Yep MOST teams don't have fast easy access to the tunnel, so they will spend a large amount of limited training jumps on a move that will only be done maybe 3-4 times in a large meet...That time is better spent getting faster random work or working on blocks that need improvement.

Also, I have always done the WHOLE 11 in the tunnel...Its pretty easy. But then again the guys I have done it with all have TONS of tunnel and have all posted a 14+ avg.

Case in point...Shamrock showdown. Tewaiz.

Kurt Gabel: Coach and National competitor for Germany...15.4 high average. 10,000 jumps.

Bob Healy: Very experienced competitor 18+ average, Tunnel coach and 5,800 jumps.

Rusty Lewis: Experience competitor 16.0 high average, Tunnel instructor with more tunnel time than most should be allowed.

Me: 3,300 jumps, tunnel coach with around 100 hours of tunnel 16.6 high average.

We did a vertical 11 in the shamrock showdown...And on the third one we funneld it. We finished with a 15.4 avg, but we lost 10 seconds on that dive.

Its a higher risk move that can be a disaster.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[dgskydive 0]

I feel it is better to learn them now because it is just one less thing they won't have to relearn later on.

With Dan B.C. helping us I don't think we are on the wrong track with this at all, and that little bit of vert did help us at our last meet. Our 8th and final point in round 1 was the close to BLock 11 and I believe because of the vert we got it in time. ALso a lot of teams didn't go vert on block 18 in round 2 and it cost them as well.

I agree that the trade off (disaster) may not be worth it for most new teams, but if you have the talent you may as well learn it once and only once.

I always reference my student progression for stuff like this. We went from Ripcords and SOS systems to, ROL with an SOS, then to a BOC and two handle system. I had to learn my deployment and reserve procedure three times! I believe that if they can, understand it and can execute it, then teach it to them early.

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Also, I have always done the WHOLE 11 in the tunnel...Its pretty easy. But then again the guys I have done it with all have TONS of tunnel and have all posted a 14+ avg.

I never said you can't do block 11 in the tunnel. We just don't at this point. I thinkthe move in the tunnel is a bit over there heads at this time. Just because of the limited space in the tunnel. Once we perfect the piece moves then we move on to both pieces at the samew time. Most of our trainging in the tunnel will be random work and most of the block stuff will be done in the air (as a 4 way). 5 point dives with 2 blocks and a random in the air for the most part. We will see at the end of the year if it pays off or not.

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Rusty Lewis: Experience competitor 16.0 high average, Tunnel instructor with more tunnel time than most should be allowed.

Not fair to use Rusty in this equation. He doesn't know up from down in the tunnel anymore cause he can fly just as well on any axis in there! That guy is good, good , good, good!

Speaking of turning block in the tunnel. The fist time I saw Joey Jones doing 4 way in the tunnel I was very impressed, then the guy flips over on his back in his RW suit between points and doens't miss a beat and barley losses any speed while turning blocks on his back while thothers are stil on there belly. then it is back to his Belly with a big smile and wink for the next page, then back to his back or the page after that!

Show Off! Iloved watching every minute of it!

Dom

[Ron 7]

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With Dan B.C. helping us I don't think we are on the wrong track with this at all,

Notice I said MOST...You have the tunnel and Dan.

Most teams DON'T have that.

And it still is not NEEDED, and MOST teams would do better to not spend the extra jumps trying to do it...The gain is not worth the expense.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[UKFSChick 0]

A really good exit will help a lot. Not just with relation to everyone flying on the same air (ie the formation not cutting in), but also that everyone is in the right quadrant straight out the door. Otherwise you have problems with people slipping down the hill (on their own!), round the corner etc.. Eye contact on the hill will help with this but the first step is getting everyone out, presented correctly and in the right place.

As has already been said, there is no substitute for getting a good 4way coach/ jumper to look at some videos of your exits. I expect that different formation exits will present different problems for you as well. If you're going to Hib for the Nationals this year, there'll be loads of people who can help you out there, for a beer or two. Or buy one of the Airspeed 4way videos/ DVDs and watch the exits repeatedly. :)

Emma