USPA still full of crap

[Ron 7]

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Ron:

Much as it grieves me to say this.... I agree with you.

That was not hard was it? When my March of Dimes thing is done...This is becoming my new sig line.

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I wonder why USPA implemented this rule? Someone must have wanted it and lobbied for it.

I think the move up rule is a throw back to before the Advanced class existed.

The problem back then was Really good weekend teams had to make a choice if they were going to win what was then Advanced (Like Inter today) or go big and compete in open.

1998 Zspot won with an 11.0. Open was won by Airspeed with a 21.3

2003 an 11.0 would get you 15th however 21.3 won Open.

So the "weekend" teams got better. The USPA saw this and thought it was unfair for "weekend" teams to have to fight Airspeed. So The Compition Commitee (With a great push from Danny Page) created the new Advanced rules...It was a playground for good weekend teams to beat the hell out each other, and still get medals. While letting Airspeed, knights, and Majic race to be the US team. It also let the Intermediate class be for newer teams.

However, they kept the move up rule. But they allow people to move down.

If they got rid of the move up rule...I would not mind PC teams with Open Bronze and Silver medalists...But to allow Open class competitors to compete in Advanced, but make true weekend warriors move up to Open is nuts.

The people who lobbied for PC teams were the player coaches. They want money..I can't blame them, but the USPA has a really stupid view of Advanced class winners.

They make it seem like they are better than everyone but the winners in open.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jmpwme 0]

wow - it appears that this once dead horse is now alive and kicking in a different forum.

So, Ron, let me add some additional fuel to this fire.
Marylou and Danny actually called me from DC during the USPA meeting to discuss the move-up rule. As you may know, I, along with others, submitted a compromise proposal to expand the 25% to include "any medal winner in a higher class or IPC sanctioned event". This would be a simple drafting change AND easy to monitor. Given that the Player-Coach is clearly hear to stay, this seemed like a good approach to put Advanced Gold Medalist on the same footing as what we have defined as "Player-Coaches".

Notwithstanding my conversation with Comp. Comm. members, they STILL changed nothing even when they were well aware of how unfair the exixting situation is.

Inertia at its finest!

Steve.

[Mad47 0]

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Let me express my fairly extreme view-- There should only be one class.
Not that extreme really...

However, it would kill a lot of Jr. 4 way teams.

Yep ... A lot of Jr teams would probably loose the motivation to play. How in a world a team that just strated can compete with those who have been doing this for years and getting paid for their jumps?

[darkwing 4]

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Let me express my fairly extreme view-- There should only be one class.
Not that extreme really...

However, it would kill a lot of Jr. 4 way teams.

Yep ... A lot of Jr teams would probably loose the motivation to play. How in a world a team that just strated can compete with those who have been doing this for years and getting paid for their jumps?

Having all of these classes seems a bit like what we do (for good reason) with little kids playing games--we take the element of competition away, so they can have fun without there being winners and losers. I still object in principle to giving gold medals to a team three categories down, and no medal to the fourth place team in the top category. We are big kids, and shouldn't need false, hollow rewards in our pursuit of excellence. Is it really the medals that makes the teams jump?

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[Ron 7]

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Yep ... A lot of Jr teams would probably loose the motivation to play. How in a world a team that just strated can compete with those who have been doing this for years and getting paid for their jumps?

Oh I don't think so.

Besides not many people really need to be in Open. There are not that many PRO teams....And that is fact.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jalisco 0]

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Is it really the medals that makes the teams jump?

Probably helps...
Sure, the subtler among us can mark our personal acheivements for ourselves. Still, having "levels" of competition gives people concrete goals and real motivation each season, which doesn't really sound false or hollow to me. I don't think anyone equates lower level medals with those won by folks in rarefied echelons of competition. But they still offer concrete tokens of real acheivements.
What if we give really nice medals to the teams in the top category, and work our way down to cheap plastic ones for entry levels?

[skydance1954 0]

Is it the medals that make teams jump? In a manner of speaking, yes. Just take a look at the history of 4-way in general. It was actually on the decline in the early to mid 90's as other exciting things like board flying and freeflying were coming online.

Then came the NSL, and it changed everything. It's even had some small effect upon USPA, however, the inertia mentioned in other posts is very hard to break.

New teams have formed all around the country, and more people are doing 4-way than ever before. Why is this? Two reasons: the first one is obvious, it is now possible for someone new to actually get an "attaboy" (read medal) from his peers, and more importantly, show the respected leaders of their respective DZ's that they now have a clue.

Second reason is less obvious at first. When you are a member of a team, regardless of division, everyoneone watches your video. Senior teams and coaches can pick out the "diamonds" from the new people, and if they are persistent, can track their progress. This allows younger jumpers to prove that they both have the drive to stay for the long haul, and that they can get better.

Without the separate divisions, the explosion in 4-way wouldn't have happened. The NSL way of doing it, specifically has done more to build it up than any other organization.

Look at Canada: once upon a time they were the 4-way kings. Yes, I know it was a long time ago, but bear with me. There is only ONE meet a year, and that's the Nationals. So you train all year, spend all that money and blow your wad in a day. Then it's all over for a whole year. And for the longest time, they only had one division, so the weekend warriors had to fight it out with the pros. They now have multiple categories, but still only one meet a year.

The result: a much reduced 4-way population today over what it was in the 70s and 80s. I mean, why try to compete when there is NO CHANCE of placing?

Is this a healthy attitude? Probably not, but it is human nature.

And just for the record, I agree that allowing competitors to move down a division is just wrong.

Hey, how about allowing someone on a PRO team to participate in a Rookie team this year? He could be a "player coach". They'd kick butt, wouldn't they?

Mike Ashley
D-18460
Canadian A-666

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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Ron, you are spot on. Someone should hire 3 open class silver medalists and compete in advanced class in 2004. I'm sure it would be rewarding for all involved, and it might just open the USPA's eyes to their egregious error.

Isn't that essentially what Juggernaut did in 2002 Int 4 way?

And then Alchemy had to play in Open 4way, even thou they were a freefly team with no previous 4-way competition outside of their player/coach. Hell, they didn't even have RW suits until the weekend before Nationals at Lake Wales.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[daveb 1]

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Someone should hire 3 open class silver medalists and compete in advanced class in 2004.

Isn't that essentially what Juggernaut did in 2002 Int 4 way?

[Ron 7]

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Isn't that essentially what Juggernaut did in 2002 Int 4 way?

No, Juggernaut was an Advanced LEVEL team. They were quite capable of turning a 13+ in an Advanced/Open draw. I think they would have medaled in Advanced that year, but they chose to step down, and take the easy win. And they were able to since no one on the team had WON Intermediate, or a higher class...

They didn't "hire" anyone...They were all the same level of skydiver.

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And then Alchemy had to play in Open 4way, even thou they were a freefly team with no previous 4-way competition outside of their player/coach. Hell, they didn't even have RW suits until the weekend before Nationals at Lake Wales.

They didn't HAVE to go open....In fact they DIDN'T go open they went Advanced. They chose to go Advanced. They could have gone in ANY class they wanted since none of them had a Gold medal in a higher class.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

Guess I was given the wrong information...I stand corrected.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Ron 7]

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Guess I was given the wrong information...I stand corrected.

No problem...I am sure you don't follow the 4way world as much as I do.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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Guess I was given the wrong information...I stand corrected.

No problem...I am sure you don't follow the 4way world as much as I do.

This is very true.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[rehmwa 2]

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Guess I was given the wrong information...I stand corrected.

No problem...I am sure you don't follow the 4way world as much as I do.

This is very true.

snort, except for maybe the Wagner brothers, it's likely true for most everybody

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Ron 7]

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snort, except for maybe the Wagner brothers, it's likely true for most everybody

I am having a hard time deciding if this was a complement, or a personal attack?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rehmwa 2]

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snort, except for maybe the Wagner brothers, it's likely true for most everybody

I am having a hard time deciding if this was a complement, or a personal attack?

A little from column A, a little from column B

Actually, there's likely a ton of people that follow 4-way pretty intensely. It must be nice to be in the middle of one of focus areas though. I'd follow it, but then, I'm obsessed. At least your obsession has paid off with some kick ass averages.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Ron 7]

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It must be nice to be in the middle of one of focus areas though. I'd follow it, but then, I'm obsessed. At least your obsession has paid off with some kick ass averages.

Do I what I did....move.

Its kinda neat being in a place where you can read Skydiving Mag and already know most of it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rehmwa 2]

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Do I what I did....move.

It's an easy decision right now to just stay in this mode with the wife and daughter. It'll change eventually, when that happens, then who knows?

In fact, one of our engineers just picked up a job in Jacksonville. He starts next week. I'm thinking I'll send a copy of my resume with him......

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants