Ron 7 #1 March 10, 2004 Well they had some minor rule changes. They have decided to keep player coaches since they see them as a "net benefit". But they didn't change the defend your title rule... So you can hire World Class jumpers and compete in Advanced, but you can't take the same team that won last year or even a combination of guys that have won in past years. So you can take 4 guys with a Silver in OPEN, but not even 2 that have won advanced. Again thats just fucked up. Stupid USPA, real fucking stupid. From the NCAA about questions to ask if a team is professional. Quote1. What is the official name of your team or organization and in what city is its central office located? 2. Does your team, league or organization recognize itself as professional? 3. Do athletes affiliated with your team/organization sign player contracts? If so, could you please attach a sample and a copy or [insert SA name]?s contract or agreement? 4. How many teams are directly or indirectly sponsored by your organization? Please name them: 5. Is any team within your organization a member of a playing league that is supported directly or indirectly, or sponsored by a team that recognizes or markets itself as a professional league or team? 6. Do any athletes on [insert team name] receive any kind of payment, directly or indirectly from a professional team or league for his or her participation? 7. Does [insert SA name] receive or has [insert SA name] ever received, direct or indirect salary, gratuity or comparable compensation for his or her participation on [insert team name]? If so, please identify amounts and figures. 8. Does the team recognize itself as a semi-professional or professional team? 9. Does the team market itself as a semi-professional or professional team? 10. Does the team participate in a league that recognizes itself as a semi-professional or professional team? 11. Does the team receive financial support or sponsorship for any team or organization that recognizes or markets itself as a professional team or organization? 12. Does the playing league in which teams participate receive any financial support or sponsorship from a team or league that recognizes or markets itself as a professional team or organization? 13 Please provide an exact and detailed list of any type of compensation [insert SA name] received while participating on [insert team name]. [This list may include travel expenses, educational expenses, housing, payment for playing, cash advances, meals, loans or use of credit cards] 14. Does the [insert team name] consider itself to be a professional [insert sport] team? 15. Did anyone on the [insert team name] receive more than actual and necessary expenses? 16. Did [insert SA name] receive educational expenses from the [insert team name]? 17. How many games did [insert SA name] compete in for the [insert team name]? 18. Did [insert SA name] receive benefits based on his or her team's place finish or other competitions? 19. Did [insert SA name] participate in any promotion sponsored by any team or league? If so, was he or she provided any monetary or other benefits (i.e., prize money, trips)? 20. Did [insert SA name] sign a contract with your team? If so, please provide a copy and list whether the contract outlines any incentives or bonuses for participation. 21. Did [insert SA name] receive housing, meals, transportation, medical expenses and/or other accommodations from the team or league? 22. Did [insert SA name] receive a stipend? 23. Has [insert SA name] agreed, either orally or in writing, to be represented by an agent? 24. Please list any other [insert sport]/league with which [insert SA name] has participated. 25. Is your team part of any scholarship program? I see Advanced as a NON professional event...Whay let PROS participate?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #2 March 10, 2004 Ron -- Do you know where we can look at what was changed?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #3 March 10, 2004 Preliminary from http://www.skyleague.com/ And Danny Page."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daveb 1 #4 March 10, 2004 Ron, you are spot on. Someone should hire 3 open class silver medalists and compete in advanced class in 2004. I'm sure it would be rewarding for all involved, and it might just open the USPA's eyes to their egregious error. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #5 March 10, 2004 QuoteSomeone should hire 3 open class silver medalists and compete in advanced class in 2004 Come on Lottery tickets............ Edited to commiserate and be on topic and not just toss in a one liner - It does look like USPA used some crappy logic here. It would be better for them to have defined what a PRO is and then set the standards for participating in Advanced. In this case, "PRO" to them is someone who wins in advanced but not someone who places in the PRO class..... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lowhook 0 #6 March 11, 2004 Heck, there are teams in intermediate with world class player coaches. That is messed up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #7 March 11, 2004 QuoteIt does look like USPA used some crappy logic here. Yeah...I can't compete with any other that has ever won Advanced...But I could hire ALL of PD Blue (Except Shannon) and Go advanced. The highest that has ever won advanced was a 14.9....Before that it was right around 13.5 since the advanced class was created. Only ONE of any of those jumpers can go back to Advanced EVER...But 4 guys that have won a silver in OPEN can compete in Advanced? Like I said...Stupid USPA, real fucking stupid."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #8 March 11, 2004 Let me express my fairly extreme view-- There should only be one class. I have never liked giving gold medals to people in second, third, fourth... tiers of competitions. The class breakdown at nationals and other venues is absurd and fosters false senses of accomplishment. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #9 March 11, 2004 Yeah, that is pretty extreme. I'll respectfully disagree with you. Your position (although in a pure sense accurate enough) would kill competitive 4-way in practice. And I'm sure you know that. If not for the other categories and the sense of accomplishment from doing well against your 'peers' I doubt as much talent would stick with it to make it to the open class. Nor would that talent have taken actions to hire the pros and give the pros more experience in studying and working on their game in the role teachers. Keeping the base up is critical in raising the bar for the pros as well as all of us. I believe minor leagues are absolutely necessary if we want the general field of jumpers to improve along with the pros. Edit - hey, nice website ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #10 March 11, 2004 QuoteLet me express my fairly extreme view-- There should only be one class. Not that extreme really... However, it would kill a lot of Jr. 4 way teams. And without a venue for them to compete...It will hurt RW in whole. I don't have a problem with JR classes...I have a problem with people taking advantage of the stupidity in the USPA and taking World class jumpers a into lower classes just so they can get a medal. Can anyone give me ONE reason why a PC team can't go in open and still get all the benefits that a PC can provide EXCEPT for the chance to medal? I bet not. So its clear people hire PC to try and buy a medal. Thats wrong as hell. You don't see a college football team being allowed to hire an EX NFL player. Or a College Basketball team being allowed to pick up a NBA PRO. Same in hockey, baseball, golf...ect. USPA wants to act like skydiving is a viable sport...But they don't act like every other sport organization out there. But they want to make a "move up" rule if you win...But they let people who have PROVEN they are some of the best move down if they want...That makes no fucking sense. The answer is really simple. A. Everyone is an amateur..Until they win a class, or medal in a higher class...Then they are ineligible to ever compete in that class, or a lower class again. OR B. They get rid of the stupid move up rule. Those are the two answers to this... USPA you want to act like the big guys...Stop playing like a child. All those that hire PC teams can take them to Open class...And get every benefit to having a PRO with them...Except they just can't medal in the amateur class. I don't follow the USPA logic...You can only take one guy that has ever won advanced back into advanced...But you could take PD Blue with Chris Irwin in Shannons place and have them compete in Advanced? Stupid USPA...real fucking stupid."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #11 March 11, 2004 Ron, You have to take the medication every day or it doesn't work. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #12 March 11, 2004 QuoteRon, You have to take the medication every day or it doesn't work. Sparky Ok... Funny story. The VP of my reigion and my division were comming in town. They flew in on the Corp jet and held a small meeting with just the Managers and staff guys. We had about 8 folks in the meeting for these two. They give the traditional speaches..Actually they were pretty good. But they danced around the recent Voulantary Seperation package, and early retirement that we just had...And the fact that about double the people took it than they thought would.....One of the managers asks him about it...kind of vaguely. He does a good job of dancing all around the question without touching it. So I ask point blank about it..."Why did so many people take the package? Was it due to the fact that the amount of money they got paid was not equal to the amount of stress put on them? And what is the company going to do about it?" He could not tap dance around that one...But he of course still gave a half answer. The manager that asked the first question told me later "Damn! you hit him with both barrels". My Sr.Manager told me the same. My Manager told me I was not harsh enough....He told my Sr. Manager that I should be sent to a course to be more assertive. The look on the Sr's face was great. I'm a direct kind of guy.....Which is why I keep turning down managment jobs....I can talk to peers like that, but not people under me."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #13 March 11, 2004 QuoteYeah, that is pretty extreme. I'll respectfully disagree with you. Your position (although in a pure sense accurate enough) would kill competitive 4-way in practice. And I'm sure you know that. In another realm of my life (not skydiving), we have a rule that once you go up a class you cannot come down again unless you've had a total layoff from competition for 3 years. And placing 1 through 3 in any class compels you to advance the following year. It works, with no complaints.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #14 March 11, 2004 Nice reply, but it doesn't relate to the quote. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #15 March 12, 2004 QuoteNice reply, but it doesn't relate to the quote. I'm not sure why you think that. If USPA's rule was along the lines I stated, Ron's objections would, I suspect, go away. It would still allow for a training or amateur class of competition, and allow someone who'd been out of competition for a while to get back in again.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #16 March 12, 2004 QuoteI'm not sure why you think that. If USPA's rule was along the lines I stated, Ron's objections would, I suspect, go away. It would still allow for a training or amateur class of competition, and allow someone who'd been out of competition for a while to get back in again. Yeah, I would not complain if your rule was in place... My only complaint is the simple fact that we make people move up if they win Advanced, but if a jumper placed in OPEN (A much higher level of skydiving) they can sandbag and compete in Advanced. And to be honest I have no issue with PC teams...as long as they are in open. No one has yet given me ONE good reason that a PC team can't get the same benefits of a PC if they went open...The only reason to go Advanced is to try and buy a medal. You could not hire a PRO in any other sport to compete in a lower level. Why can you in skydiving? Johns rule would work well."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #17 March 12, 2004 QuoteIn another realm of my life (not skydiving), we have a rule that once you go up a class you cannot come down again unless you've had a total layoff from competition for 3 years. And placing 1 through 3 in any class compels you to advance the following year. It works, with no complaints. I will concede that my extreme view is just that. I think Kallend's method, which I have seen applied in other sports, is a suitable alternative. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #18 March 12, 2004 QuoteQuoteNice reply, but it doesn't relate to the quote. I'm not sure why you think that. If USPA's rule was along the lines I stated, Ron's objections would, I suspect, go away. It would still allow for a training or amateur class of competition, and allow someone who'd been out of competition for a while to get back in again. Sorry, J - I was originally replying to Darkwing saying we shouldn't have but a single class and the heck with the benefits of having junior classes. You were speaking to Ron's issues but quoted me from that other, short line of discussion. Thus "nice point" in reference to your discussion concerning Ron's position but, "doesn't relate to the quote" in reference to what you'd actually quoted. That's all. (from what I can see we all think you're point is a valid method - and I think if we define a PRO as someone who's placed in OPEN, then that makes it pretty clear.) Communication's a bitch isn't it? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daveb 1 #19 March 13, 2004 Quote...I think if we define a PRO as someone who's placed in OPEN, then that makes it pretty clear. So you're not a pro unless you place in open? This might surprise a few former pros. It seems a better distinction to call out paid players; if a team member (other than the video flyer) is paid to jump with the team, said team may only compete for official placement in open, otherwise it is a guest team, and thus ineligible for a medal in all other classes. -- Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #20 March 14, 2004 Yeah, that fits a more traditional definition better. I wasn't proposing a definition as much as seeing if there was a way to rationalize John's thoughts against Ron's..... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #21 March 15, 2004 QuoteIt seems a better distinction to call out paid players; if a team member (other than the video flyer) is paid to jump with the team, said team may only compete for official placement in open, otherwise it is a guest team, and thus ineligible for a medal in all other classes. Id support that. However is he paid if he only gets expenses covered?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #22 March 15, 2004 QuoteYeah, that fits a more traditional definition better. I wasn't proposing a definition as much as seeing if there was a way to rationalize John's thoughts against Ron's..... I think that's unenforcible. Not even the IRS can keep track effectively of who's paid what, so how will USPA? It just invites cheating.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daveb 1 #23 March 15, 2004 QuoteI think that's unenforcible. Not even the IRS can keep track effectively of who's paid what, so how will USPA? It just invites cheating. Yeahbut... at any level other than open, you are only playing for the joy of competition, and if cheating floats your boat, you don't get caught, and you can live with it.... I don't have a problem with the USPA rule as is. I think Ron's harping on having open silver medalists playing in the minors is a red herring. The only real issue is PCs, who may or may not have medaled in open, but do have one consistent theme: they are paid to play. I seriously doubt anyone is going to come up with a bulletproof rule that is agreeable to all. Perhaps Quade's golden ratio rule is the best compromise from the standpoint of competition. And somewhere in here is supposed to be the concept of sportsmanship, which is pretty hard to legislate or enforce. -- Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #24 March 15, 2004 QuoteI think Ron's harping on having open silver medalists playing in the minors is a red herring. The only real issue is PCs, who may or may not have medaled in open, but do have one consistent theme: they are paid to play. Not to me. My issue is simple....The surrent USPA rules say you, me, Carlos Curti, Niklas Gummeson, Alex Pincus, Gurt Gaebel....Basicly anyone who has ever won a Gold medal in Advance is to good to stay in Advanced... But they will let Chris Irwin, Hammo, Ian Bobo, David VanG, Kyle Collins or anyone that has medaled in OPEN (other than Gold) to compete in Advanced. So ask yourself this question....Who is better...A guy that won Advanced, or a guy that has a bronze or silver in Open? If you are like me then you think the guys that have medaled in OPEN are probably better than they guys that won advanced. But why do you have to move up if they are allowed to move down? Does a Gold in Advanced make you better than a Bronze in Open? If not then why do you have to move up, but they can move down? If you have medaled in a higher class you have no buisness in a lower class. You have proven that you are better than that class already. I don't like the math rule....You guys were a great team...You were not Pros, but you kicked butt. Under that kind of rule it limits the level of Advanced play. I think the issue is Pros sandbagging, not guys like you that worked really hard. It is a simple issue of making PRO's stay in the class they belong. If you are considered a PRO after you win Advanced..Why are you not considered a PRO if you place in OPEN? Makes no sense to me. QuoteThe only real issue is PCs, who may or may not have medaled in open, but do have one consistent theme: they are paid to play. I don't care who gets paid to do what....My issue is with guys that have PROVEN they are world class playing in a field that was created for weekend warriors. But that weekend jumpers that have won that class are considered Pro. That makes no sense."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #25 March 15, 2004 Ron: Much as it grieves me to say this.... I agree with you. I wonder why USPA implemented this rule? Someone must have wanted it and lobbied for it.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
