curtismelaniej 0 #1 August 25, 2003 Ok, for whatever reason I'm sucking at the vertical zirc move in the point slot when the centers cross first. I can do snowy-off's beautifully, but can't seem to get the zirc dialed in. I keep contorting my body trying to stop myself hard after I go over the top, and it's causing our whole piece to tip and move away. Yeah, yeah, don't do that anymore, I get it, but I'm thinking maybe some different language on the same stuff will help the light bulb come on for me. (And FYI, the back piece is stellar, so it's not like I'm getting the wrong pictures.) If anyone wants to throw out what they're thinking/doing on that move, I'm all ears! Thanks! Mel __________________________________________________________ http://www.skydiveelsinore.com/teams/EXCEL/basic_camp.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #2 August 25, 2003 I've been thinking about trying the move with the centers crossing first, also. (We do the double vertical with the p/t making the first vert and the centers making the vert to finish - more standard, it's nice and I don't think the other is that much shorter. Most time when people visualize this, they think hey, just a little hop and then essentially snow/off. Not true. Zirc is a bigger burble.) But we didn't see the advantage. The initial hop would almost be a scramble and now you (point and tail) are moving and catching instead of watching and catching. 1 - Are you and the tail waiting until the first move is 'completely' stopped? (Just for practice, work on taking turns with complete pauses after the center vert to get the rhythm). That should clear up your move and timing. Then you can start to see how close you can put the two moves together. From your posts, you are way more advanced so you've likely already done this part about breaking it down into component moves. 1a - Is your center holding the mid picture until her head is almost twisted off? That's really important. Just like snow/off 2 - If both pieces aren't in sink, then the back can look ok, but it's not stellar unless you both are in. Video would be nice right now but - just like snow/off - super low energy move, make sure the center is being anchors, start your braking before the hop and land on level and momentum finish the close. The best you can hope for is to start the braking sooner (before the crossover) and then use the burble to finish the vert. you can still go flat to keep from dropping past, but maybe keep that catching hand out. (or, let the centers take the catch thus freeing up the point and tail to just fly - you might already do that. I would have not gotten it until writing this response.) I'd try moving the piece grips to the centers first if you haven't already. Then lower the energy of your move and start the brake while in clean air. You still have some room to finish after your hop, so better to go over flat and then finish than try to force the stop directly overhead. z-z only needs that when the center is the finish, not the p/t. I'd definitely like to know how it works once you get it figured out. And why you choose that instead of the other rotation... This might not help, but maybe you can get new ideas. Hope it helps. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
curtismelaniej 0 #3 August 25, 2003 Awesome post, thank you! It all helps-- fyi, we've got the centers building the compressed, and picking up the close-- the p/t are taking arm grips. I think you're right, in that my problem might be solved by the old less-is-more thing. The more I think about it, the more I think I'm just going to frickin' hard, realizing it way too late, and then trying to stop as hard as my body will allow-- hence the contorting, twisting, tipping thing that I'm inducing in our piece. As for why our team chose this method-- well, I'm not really sure to be perfectly honest-- we started out with the cogg, but it was slow, and the close was always stretchy, causing need for boxing out before the key, or leading to funk into the next random build. We ditched the cogg for this version, and have been plugging away at it ever since. We used to do them better than we are now, but I was still making not quite the right move-- so we tried to add some sugar and spice, and I just for whatever reason started sucking more than before. I know I'll get it, I just havn't heard the ding yet. I'm going to try doing less, and I'll let you know how it goes.... Thanks again for the post, it DID help-- got me thinking in a different direction..... __________________________________________________________ http://www.skydiveelsinore.com/teams/EXCEL/basic_camp.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base570 1 #4 August 25, 2003 QuoteOk, for whatever reason I'm sucking at the vertical zirc move in the point slot when the centers cross first. Hi Melanie, I would suggest having the Point and Tail doing the verts. 1st and both picking up and catching the grips. This way, in my opinion, makes the block easier by giving some room for the vert to begin (especially helpful when leaning verts while being attached to a teammate ). If you continue the way you have I would suggest keeping your body from contorting, instead see where you need to go (your pictures) and know exactly where you need to stop, then make the move and dig the appropriate knee at you stopping point (or before!) Body contortions aren't necessary to fly effieciently and smoothly, just use your legs and knees more. Oh, and make sure the grips between you and your partner are loose not stiff letting each of you fly independently yet still connected. Peace, Jason Point - Angry Beez PM me if you want a detailed version of how we do our 18's Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #5 August 25, 2003 Melanie - jason is right and his team's results show it. If you don't have a specific reason for doing it your way, the 'stock' way is how the other teams are doing it and it's much cleaner. I'm sure it's been tried and I like to know why it's done this way instead (just like cogging the canTblock instead of shear). 1 - you'll have to change the build to the P/T taking grips 2 - remember, it's not spinning the pieces, but trading places with your mirror and taking turns (p/t finish their move before the centers go). Visualize the lanes you start in (a big cross with each teammate on an arm) and make sure that you don't go outside the lane. it's a great thing to move from the cog to the double vert - that means skill and confidence is now high Oh - It's ok to go "too fricken hard" - as long as know when to stop ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ptwob231 0 #6 August 25, 2003 QuoteBut we didn't see the advantage. The initial hop would almost be a scramble and now you (point and tail) are moving and catching instead of watching and catching. we do it that way with the centers taking grips. it allows the centers to set levels to make the "hop" and it finishes a quite a bit easier than the other double vertical move. we like and use it and its worked quite well. the danger we found was that if the center's timing was off on the initial hop it turns into a bad bad scramble but thats only happened one time since we started doing it that way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #7 August 25, 2003 Thanks, it might be fun to try after the season ends. {{I'd actually started visualizing this lately and was wondering if the easier finish would be worth the extra effort thus explaining why I had quite a bit of detailed thought for melanie - our experience is mostly in the point piece, rather than the center, but as OC, I'd have the work and I think I can pull it off. Also, I just 'feel' the build would be cleaner.}} ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #8 August 26, 2003 This is a classic problem. The bigger issue is this...Which is more consistant for you? The cogg? or the standard double vert, or this one? I will bet that for most teams the Cogg is MUCH more consistant. The third place advanced team did it Cogg. They did get smoked in that round at nationals, but it comes down to its ONE point in ten rounds....I would bet that all the time spent on it would be better spent doing randoms or working on all the other problem blocks. I see teams do this all the time...they REALLY want to do the cool move. Classic example is this one...Vertical 11's. They spend many jumps trying to get it nailed. When they do it really well, the might save 0.3 seconds on it. But when they blow it, the spend 1.0 seconds trying to fix the fuck up.....Airspeed did an 18 not doing 11 vertical back in the day. Nationals is right around the corner...Pick the most consistant way and train it....Do R&D at the start of next year.... For my other 2 cents...the "standard" way of the Vert is better with the P&T starting the vertical....Better visuals, better starts..ect. And the reason you are having problems is most likley to much "vooma"...You are trying to do to much...the 18 is such a small move, but looks really hard. And start stopping sooner, you want ot fall into place, which means you have to start stopping BEFORE the vertical. Ron Frost 2001 Nationals 14.9 ZHills 16.6, 15.4 NSL."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
curtismelaniej 0 #9 August 26, 2003 Honestly the cogg was sucking too-- like I said, very stretchy at every close-- I'll find out why we're sticking with this particular double-vert method and post it later.... I think you're right too, Ron-- I honestly think I'm just doing WAY too much-- now I just want to get back in the MF air and do it again, but we're not training again til the 6th (damn it) ... videos and visualization til then..... Thanks for your posts guys-- will come back later with an update..... __________________________________________________________ http://www.skydiveelsinore.com/teams/EXCEL/basic_camp.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lowhook 0 #10 September 10, 2003 If your cogs are sucking too it sounds like poor eye contact between subgroups. Going vert will make this even worse. Unless you are averaging over 13 I would be trying to cog zirc>zirc. The catch is easier, the block has a nice feel, eye contact is easier and you are often left with a very nice build to lead into the random move that will follow. Snow>Off is a lot easier to do 3D than zirc>zirc. How is your stardian move? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
curtismelaniej 0 #11 September 10, 2003 Hey lowhook-- yeah, we (Elsinore Adrenaline) actually are doing about a 14.5 right now on a medium to fastish draw, and zirc-zirc is just one of our problem blocks--- we just trained last weekend and I had a lightbulb go on for sure--- basically, I did WAY LESS, and ARCHED through the move (originally wasn't doing this on stardians either, but have that one dialed in now)--- I don't know why it has taken me so long to get that concept on verticals-- Hello, ARCH! Anyway, that helped take away the ridiculous level difference between the pieces, and doing less (on everyone's part actually) has made me see the light-- the centers were also doing too much causing separation in the peices right from the start, giving the outside the wrong pictures, so we adjusted our moves accordingly, blah blah blah, you know the drill-- so the centers toned down, and now we've got something to work with. Basically, I think I've finally switched on the more acute awareness needed to fix little sh*t that's going wrong in the middle of these blocks, all of course in split seconds. Obviously, I'm not 100% dialed in yet, but putting conscious focus on the intricacies of a block in freefall (sounds like it's the obvious thing that everyone would be doing, but when you're moving that fast (I don't have THAT many jumps) it's very easy for your brain to skim over stuff and simply miss the details that ultimately matter a lot. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. Anyway, I'm feeling good-- 5 more training days til Nationals-- we're ready. Thanks for the posts, everyone-- see you in Lake Wales? What are your teams? __________________________________________________________ http://www.skydiveelsinore.com/teams/EXCEL/basic_camp.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #12 September 11, 2003 QuoteThanks for the posts, everyone-- see you in Lake Wales? What are your teams? Well last year it was frost 14.9. This year it started great 20 training jumps and a 16.6. Then all hell broke loose around jump #70. And now one guy is at GK tryouts, another didn't budget for nationals since he didn't think we were going. Guy one comes back from the GK thing 3 days before nationals, and if guy 2 can get some money set up we are going to try and throw something together there. a far cry from the 300 training jumps we planned."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
curtismelaniej 0 #13 September 11, 2003 Ouch-- well, whenever I can't do 4-way (for whatever reason), instead of getting antsy and anxious, I always tell myself that at least I'm saving money! Pick up teams are at least new and fun, and you can never beat the crowd at Nationals. Look forward to meeting you in Lake Wales, and going up against you in Open! __________________________________________________________ http://www.skydiveelsinore.com/teams/EXCEL/basic_camp.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #14 March 31, 2004 When this post came up a while ago, some people were wondering about the various ways to do zircon-zircon. FYI - On the NSL home page this week (today is March 31) there are video examples of: 1 - cogging the pieces (Perris Prec) 2 - double vert with the centers moving first (Blade) 3 - double vert with the point/tail moving first (Airspeed) It's a good way to study your options on this very fun block. My team isn't too fast (YET) and I'd like a cleaner finish so we don't have to settle down after the finish. So although we've preferred style 3, we might experiment with 2 just for the fun of it...... Although I think just practicing with controlled vertical drills will be more beneficial though. My first team cogged - yechhh ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #15 March 31, 2004 18 is one of my favorites, mainly because it just looks cool! Last year, we did it with the centers crossing first, and it worked really well. This year I'm doing it the Airspeed way since, well, I'm jumping with a former Airspeed member. I'm learning a lot of new things this year! For example, our continuity plan this year has the BACK piece taking all of the slot switchers...whoa. But there's a reason for that, and I'm kind of excited about it!Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brianflian 0 #16 March 31, 2004 Man, everyone is rushing to the aid of a chick in need! That's never happened in the world of skydiving before! Stay tuned for help with packing! The key is to put your fingers in your armpits, snap them out quickly, placing them in front of your face. Take one whiff, and reflect on the fact that you are a superstar. I've had some experience with this method, and would be glad to look at video next time we are training at Elsinore (april 16 - 18). It always seems to me that 18's can be made much better with a ridiculously long wait before crossing. Make sure centers are completely stopped before you and tail cross. Feel the Xandre, Brian Elsinore GT Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
curtismelaniej 0 #17 March 31, 2004 Haha-- thanks for the posts guys-- I actually posted this thread way back in August of last year, and feel pretty dialed in on 18's now with the center's crossing first-- the pictures are very clear given the centers go out the proper initial distance-- and the key I found for my move over tail is to just DO LESS. I was originally putting in a crapload of power and then trying to stop ridiculously hard, resulting in the whole piece tipping, sinking, and drifting too far out. Yeah, chilling out and doing less was the key for me. I've never done the block with the outsides crossing first, so can't really comment on what's better. Although I will definitely say I like the vertical method a hell of a lot more than the cogg. As for sticking your hands in your armpits and feeling like a superstar-- all about that sh*t. Feelin' it, Sista of the Xandre __________________________________________________________ http://www.skydiveelsinore.com/teams/EXCEL/basic_camp.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #18 March 31, 2004 Hilarious, I just posted this (update/bump) for newer people who might want to see their options. Based on Nats last year, I'd say Mel has figured it out and then some. BB - as for jumping with an Airspeed member - you stink in so many ways I just can't stand it (no, I'm not jealous, no really. I'm not. am not. ok, just a little, ok a lot. But I do look good in green. not really. fine, i'm homely as a mule's butt. HAPPY?) Melanie - I'm not letting you off the hook. My new guy will be flying point, so we'll likely have questions fired straight at you. Ron can't carry the entire mentoring load on DZ.com ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #19 March 31, 2004 QuoteMelanie - I'm not letting you off the hook. My new guy will be flying point, so we'll likely have questions fired straight at you. Ron can't carry the entire mentoring load on DZ.com Plus I only have a 12.5 avg at point...So I am sure she can do that slot better than me. Its the one slot I don't like/don't do."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #20 March 31, 2004 oh, don't worry, the down side is that it's friggin' expensive as all get-out. And for those of you who don't want PC's competing for Advanced class medals (I'm one of those, too), we'll be guests. Our non-US-citizen member keeps me from having to deal with a tough moral dilemma. Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #21 April 2, 2004 I have to say I tried the Vertical with the centers crossing first on Wagga Wagga...I kinda liked it. Not as much as the "standard" way, but if I had a team that was having problems with the standard one, and was to good for the cogg... It would be worth a look."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
curtismelaniej 0 #22 April 2, 2004 4-way talk during the work day? Uuuh... ALL ABOUT IT. Just warning you though, I'm one of those annoying feeeeling skydivers, so I might not have the best words for the technical side of things... but I'll give it a shot for the sake of procrastination. __________________________________________________________ http://www.skydiveelsinore.com/teams/EXCEL/basic_camp.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
