Learning RW

[MikeTJumps 4]

Long before Skydive U or coaches were predominant, we had individuals who jumped with low experience folks and helped them learn our incredible sport.

I strongly recommend you get a copy of Pat Works' "The Art of Freefall Relative Work" as that was the premier book of its day and it still is a great resource of information on belly RW. He also has a book on vertical RW now.

Mike Turoff
Instructor Examiner, USPA
Co-author of Parachuting, The Skydiver's Handbook

[rehmwa 2]

So right. It's a small investment to have good jumpers to play with in a couple years.

My Sunday was 2 jumpers (each on 2-ways with me), each with about 30 jumps, and I walked them through their first Mantis training. (Basic body position, fall rate, turns)

The vibes and big eyes were completely worth the jumps. It's like watching the joy in a baby's eyes when they learn to walk - except on adults. You have to see it!

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Fast 0]

I have to say that comming off student status is when you have the most to learn. Your still a low time jumper who has not developed a lot of habbits, but your also probally broke, or close to it as you just bought gear, or spent a lot of $ on initial training.

Makes it hard to pay for coach jumps, and I think that is one reason that people develop bad habits or turn to FF rather than RW.

I am lucky enough to have made some friends that are willing to jump with me and teach me, before I teach myself wrongly.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[skytrixaz 0]

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...I assume the best way to get someone to do a 2-way would would be to pay for their jump but was wondering what other positive ways there are to approach it.

Heck no...don't pay for another jumper to get in the air with you...remember...there's something called "giving back to the sport" which alot of us, like Rehmwa, feel privileged and honored to do. Someday SSkydiver...you too will be participating in the giving back process. I've encountered a few professionals who make their living skydiving who also participate in "giving back to the sport". Those who choose not to without getting compensated...hey...that's ok too...its a choice one makes and maybe they've already given back someway or another.

I've been in your shoes and finally decided I had to take charge of my learning process. I'll spare you the details in this post. Here are some of my recommendations and things that I did:

One cool thing, which I think is tons of fun, volunteer to organize a 4-Way Scrambles...talk to your dz owner (Phil Chappell). Gee...tell Phil I'll even come down and help organize (I owe a visit to Skydive San Marcos). Scrambles are a good way to get everyone in the mix, break the barriers and learn in the process.

Second thing...take a skills camps...Arizona Airspeed has a fantastic program. The skills camps will totally challenge you in just about every aspect of RW...exits, docking, you'll learn each 4-way slot, proper tracking techniques, meet skydivers from all over the U.S. and world. You will also walk away from the camp familiar with your personal skydiving strengths and weakness.

Thirdly...the most addictive (at least for me) the Wind Tunnel. I did an Airspeed Mega Tunnel Camp (six days straight...what was I thinking???). No really...the tunnel is one of the best training tools...nothing else compares to it.

Lastly...come to Skydive Arizona...I'll jump with you and so will my team mates!!!

Email me if you need an further info, questions, contact numbers, etc.

g

[colbrodie 0]

Everyone's given you lots of good advice here about tunnel camps, skills camps, etc. One other thing to look into after you get all these new skills is a "Rookie Class" competition in your area's skydiving league. Last year I was on an Introductory Class team in the Carolina skydiving league. The rules were that everyone on the team had to have less than 300 jumps except one person who could have an unlimited number. The meets for this class were only 4 rounds, and the dive pool consisted only of 8 random formations. The first point was always a meeker and then there were 2 more points for 3-point skydives. The skydives were simple enough to allow you to be successful and see steady improvement throughout the year. Plus, we had a BLAST. All the Open Class teams are more than willing to help you engineer dives because they are so excited to see new people competing. (Of course, in the Carolina Skydiving League, we're extra lucky to have the Golden Knights as coaches!) If your area league doesn't have this "beginner" level, talk to your league director and see if he/she would consider adding it on a trial basis.

Have fun and blue skies,

Michelle

[skytrixaz 0]

Excellent idea!!! SSkydiver...there is a Rookie Division in the Texas Skydiving League: http://www.txsl.com/

Your learning curve will go up dramatically jumping with a team. Send Ryan Smith, your TSL Meet Director an email and express your interest. Ryan is a super guy and might be able to connect you with some other people looking for a team mate in the Rookie Division.

Lots of luck to you!

g

[Ron 7]

He says:

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...I assume the best way to get someone to do a 2-way would would be to pay for their jump but was wondering what other positive ways there are to approach it.

Then you say:

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Heck no...don't pay for another jumper to get in the air with you...remember...there's something called "giving back to the sport" which alot of us, like Rehmwa, feel privileged and honored to do.

And then:

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Second thing...take a skills camps

Then:

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Thirdly...the most addictive (at least for me) the Wind Tunnel. I did an Airspeed Mega Tunnel Camp

Now, are the Skill scamps and tunnel camps free, or did you have to pay someone to do them with you?

Whats the difference between paying a coach to do a two way, or paying for a coach to do two ways with you at a skills camp or at the tunnel?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Emma 0]

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Whats the difference between paying a coach to do a two way, or paying for a coach to do two ways with you at a skills camp or at the tunnel?

The implied difference, I think, is in the quality of the learning experience.

In general an Airspeed or XL skills camp will provide better quality coaching than a 2-way with someone who happens to have more jumps than you.

IN GENERAL.

There are many decent skydivers who will jump with newbies and not expect to get their slot paid, because they know they aren't as good at coaching or skydiving as, say, someone off a World Class team.

However for a qualified Skydive U / FS1/ WARP coach I don't see anything wrong with paying for their slot.

[Ron 7]

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The implied difference, I think, is in the quality of the learning experience.

But thats not what she said.

Why are you explaining what someone else meant anyway? Do you know this for sure?

Who is arguing now?

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In general an Airspeed or XL skills camp will provide better quality coaching than a 2-way with someone who happens to have more jumps than you.

There are many decent skydivers who will jump with newbies and not expect to get their slot paid, because they know they aren't as good at coaching or skydiving as, say, someone off a World Class team.

And most of the time Airspeed is way above the level of the jumper anyway...So they might be better with other local cheaper coaches till then need Airspeed. It does not take a world class jumper to teach AFF.

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However for a qualified Skydive U / FS1/ WARP coach I don't see anything wrong with paying for their slot

I don't have any of those...But I did coach for 9 hrs in the tunnel last week, had two teams pay for me to jump with them at the NSL playoffs this weekend and have a coaching gig for Sunday.

So I guess Im not worth it then huh?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Bubble 0]

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And most of the time Airspeed is way above the level of the jumper anyway...So they might be better with other local cheaper coaches till then need Airspeed. It does not take a world class jumper to teach AFF.


It always pays to have someone who is competent in coaching aswell as a good skydiver, at airspeeds level of coaching experience aswell as skydiving it is going to give you a great deal more than being coached by somebody who may well be a good skydiver but not used to coaching therefore not used to peoples different learning styles but they are still asking you to pay for them. As far as the "It does not take a world class jumper to teach AFF. " Maybe not but I know a lot of bad AFF instructors that I would not recommend even for coaching, someone could have a lot of jumps and experience with knowledge that could be passed on, however, could that be passed on in a way that is easily understood?

I found the best way for me was to find some friends all at the same level and put together a junior 4-way team, we found then that people were more than happy to brief and debrief our dives, we struggled to even get together at first but the more tips we were told the more we learnt. We developed these skills further by doing a 2 week training camp with Gary Smith and some tunnel time, we turned a 3pt average before we went into a 10pt average by the time we got back and that was from jump 60 through to about 200 over a year. This worked for me I am not saying it will work for everyone.

There is no harm with doing some paid coaching jumps at your dz if you know that you will gain alot from that person, there are a lot of good coaches out there with alot of useful knowledge, but beware there are also alot of people that will take the free jump without giving you any skills.

Ron - I am sure you are worth it, FS1 is a recognised qualification in the UK, you would pay for that WARP coach so that you can gain this FS1 to then be able to jump with whoever you like, of course you would expect to pay for this Emma is just pointing that out. Further coaching after FS1 is when it becomes a bit sketchy - do you or do you not pay for someone to jump with you. If they are going to pass on skills that they have speant a lot of money getting themselves then maybe the argument is yes to at least get the slot covered, but again that goes back to my point of can they pass that on in a way that you will understand?

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[Ron 7]

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It always pays to have someone who is competent in coaching aswell as a good skydiver, at airspeeds level of coaching experience aswell as skydiving it is going to give you a great deal more than being coached by somebody who may well be a good skydiver but not used to coaching therefore not used to peoples different learning styles but they are still asking you to pay for them.

Yes, but the question that I asked was aimed at someone else...In one sentance they say that you don't need to pay people to jump with you :

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Heck no...don't pay for another jumper to get in the air with you...remember...there's something called "giving back to the sport"

Then she says:

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take a skills camps

Then she says:

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Thirdly...the most addictive (at least for me) the Wind Tunnel. I did an Airspeed Mega Tunnel Camp

My question was which did she recomend? Not to pay someone? Or only pay Airspeed?

Quote from me:

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Whats the difference between paying a coach to do a two way, or paying for a coach to do two ways with you at a skills camp or at the tunnel?

Then Emma jumped in and answered what she thought was the intent.


Emma:

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The implied difference, I think, is in the quality of the learning experience.

Now if you look at my first post I never said anything about who the coach was. Emma just assumed I didn't mean an Airspeed or Majic coach.

In my second post I brought up the fact that not everyone needs a world class jumper to coach them. Since it was brought up I fiqured I would throw my opinion out on that as well. Most people will not get even 50% use out of a world class coach.

I know several coaches that are really good, but are not on Airspeed/Majic, XL, Blue...ECT...

Chromy is a great coach, Kurt Gaebel is fantastic, Bob Healy is great, Niklas Hemlin, Brian Johnson...All great coaches. And they can teach most people what they need to know. This person was asking had 60 jumps at the time....They were looking for a way to get some skills, not win the nationals...at least not yet.

For that matter this person might do just fine with a local Skydive U coach at first. And save TONS of money at their local DZ.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[skytrixaz 0]

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The implied difference, I think, is in the quality of the learning experience.

But thats not what she said.

Why are you explaining what someone else meant anyway? Do you know this for sure?

Who is arguing now?

Emma is just stating her opinion...I'm capable of stating my opinion. And for the record...no one is arguing. I sense some hostility in your post...are you ok?

Its a matter of choice and personal priorities how one chooses to spend one's money with regard to skydiving. I prefer to pay for a skills camp, tunnel camp, 4-way training because that's the bigger payoff for me. If someone choose to pay for a 2-way drill dive...that's their choice. As I mentioned before...there are plenty of people who are willing to do a 2-way drill dives just for the asking. Oh let me see, you can even pay for a World Champion to be on your 4-way team and compete at Nationals (wow...learning curve would go up dramatically).

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So I guess Im not worth it then huh?

Nobody said that...that's how you're filtering it. Only you know the answer to that question. If you're being asked to coach...other skydiver value your knowledge and input.

Relax...these are all just opinions and have no reflection on you.

g

[Ron 7]

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Emma is just stating her opinion...I'm capable of stating my opinion. And for the record...no one is arguing. I sense some hostility in your post...are you ok?

Carry over from another post...when I do what she did she likes to say I am being argumentative.

The fact is I never asked you anything other than:

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Whats the difference between paying a coach to do a two way, or paying for a coach to do two ways with you at a skills camp or at the tunnel?

I never said what coach....She just assumed I meant something else.

I just asked you what was the difference between paying a coach to do a two way, or going to a camp?

And you answered nothing, but you would rather do the camps....Which is a great, honest answer.

But they do cost more (For people that don't live in AZ or FL, and soon to be Perris).

I bet if you lived in CA...You could get great coaching from John Hamilton, Dan BC, Chris Irwin...ect. AZ you could get coaching from any meber of AS...

FL you could get XL or Majic.

If you have only 60 jumps you would save alot and get a good deal of info with your local Skydive U coaches, and you would not have to spend the extra money to travel.

Yes, Airspeed, Majic, XL, Blue ect are better coaches...But thats at times like having a Collage professor teach Elementary school. The professor knows MUCH more, but 90% of his skill is not needed. Kinda like putting out a match with a fire hose.

Then she said:

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However for a qualified Skydive U / FS1/ WARP coach I don't see anything wrong with paying for their slot.

But I am saying that there are plenty of good skydivers that don't have an AFF, Skydive U or even a USPA coaches course...so that is not really the only way to look at that....Bob Healy does not have a Skydive U rating, but he really knows what he is doing.

People get all wrapped up in certifications...I know plenty of non SDU, Non AFF, non USPA coaches that I would rather have teach my friends than some of the SDU, AFF, USPA coaches I know.

The USPA coaches program is a large joke anyway. But people like to latch on to things like that...

The simple fact is that most DZ's will not let a guy call himself a coach at that DZ if they really do suck. So at 100 jumps and all you want are basic skills...Your local guy might just work fine.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 1,632]

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FS1 is a recognised qualification in the UK, you would pay for that WARP coach so that you can gain this FS1 to then be able to jump with whoever you like,

How does this apply to visitors to the UK? Would I have to pass FS1 before being allowed to do RW with "whoever" I like in the UK? (I ask because I visit family there from time to time).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Bubble 0]

I'm not sure exactly how it works but I am pretty sure the CCI will examine the log book and provided you have done similar abroad you will be allowed to carry on as normal. It is just something we do for newly qualified AFF or RAPS students to make sure they are capable of docking on small formations, fast fall, slow fall, forward backwards and turns etc. If you turn up with your equivilent qualification that should be fine or proof that you have done similar work.

Kelland - I have just seen your profile, I wouldn't worry this is just for the lower experienced skydivers.

[skytrixaz 0]

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The fact is I never asked you anything other than:

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Whats the difference between paying a coach I just asked you what was the difference between paying a coach to do a two way, or going to a camp?

And you answered nothing, but you would rather do the camps....Which is a great, honest answer.

I did answer it. Its a matter of personal choice and priorities. Read my posts again. We all know that its a given you're going to have to pay for an organized skills camp and tunnel camp for various reasons. My point is...if there are people who are willing to do a voluntary no strings attached 2-way drill dive and fun jumps...why not? There's still alot to be learned from those jumps not to mention fun. If someone asks to be paid...its your choice to say "ok" or "no thanks".

Since there seem to be so many people in SSkydiver's position...what can we as experienced jumpers do to help them recognize their talents? For me, its making myself available to include them on a fun jump, drill dive, sharing knowledge...whatever it takes, and doing so genuinely. That's all.

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Then she said:
***However for a qualified Skydive U / FS1/ WARP coach I don't see anything wrong with paying for their slot.

No...I didn't say that...that's someone else's post.

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[Emma 0]

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Carry over from another post...when I do what she did she likes to say I am being argumentative.

Ron. Are you flirting with me?

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But I am saying that there are plenty of good skydivers that don't have an AFF, Skydive U or even a USPA coaches course...so that is not really the only way to look at that....Bob Healy does not have a Skydive U rating, but he really knows what he is doing.

Sure, you are probably right.

The point I am making is simply that there are skydivers with or without ratings who will jump with lower experienced people for free. For 'fun', if you like - radical concept as it is on an RW forum...

You can learn stuff without always having to pay someone. In fact I know some World Class jumpers who still jump for fun and don't charge, nice people that they are.

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If you have only 60 jumps you would save alot and get a good deal of info with your local Skydive U coaches, and you would not have to spend the extra money to travel.

True enough. You can also learn a lot with people who will jump with you and not charge. I think 'friends' is the commonly used term.

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Yes, Airspeed, Majic, XL, Blue ect are better coaches...But thats at times like having a Collage professor teach Elementary school. The professor knows MUCH more, but 90% of his skill is not needed. Kinda like putting out a match with a fire hose.

Not quite. The benefit of being coached by skydivers of this calibre is not in their ability to pass on all that vast and superior knowledge. It is their experience as coaches that counts. And being on top teams generally means they have done a lot of coaching.

90% of their knowledge (of 4way block technique, for example) is not needed. But 100% of their skill as a coach IS.

To continue your analogy, I am a school teacher. 90% of my degree, or subject knowledge, is irrelevant in the classroom. But 100% of my teaching skill and experience is - whether I'm teaching kindergarten or 'A' Level.

Selection of a coach should be based on whether you get on with them and how experienced and effective they are as coaches. It will be different for everyone, but from what I've seen, the more experienced a coach is at coaching in that particular discipline, the better the coach.

Yes - whether they are actually on a top team is not as relevant as their coaching experience - but generally those who are on, or who have been on, a top team - have done a lot of coaching. This is why ASPD/ Majik/ XL come so highly recommended. And why they can justify their charges.

If you only have 60 jumps and are looking for a good coach, word of mouth is probably better than looking for an FS coach's rating. And if word of mouth recommends paying that person's slot, probably makes sense to do it.

You don't have to do a skills camp with a top team, or a tunnel camp, although if you do your learning will accelerate dramatically, even with only 60 jumps.

But that doesn't mean you can't fun jump with non-charging friends.

There are people who will take money for their slot without really benefitting the student much. This is what everyone wants to avoid - hence the discussion.

Does that explain where I stand?

And I have no idea of whether you are a good coach or not Ron. Please don't take things so personally.

ps and Ron? Nice use of bold...

[Ron 7]

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I did answer it

I know you answered "Nothing" in the way such as.."Nothing is different"...Not "you didnt answer it"...And I said it was a very valid answer.

I just wrote/you just read it wrong.

No biggie.

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what can we as experienced jumpers do to help them recognize their talents? For me, its making myself available to include them on a fun jump, drill dive, sharing knowledge...whatever it takes, and doing so genuinely. That's all.

and thats great...I do this as well...In fact the only times I charge for coaching is when they want me all day just with them....If I can't fun jump or do tandems, I like to get paid...But I am always giving advice, helping with exits...ect when Im not "on Duty".

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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Not quite. The benefit of being coached by skydivers of this calibre is not in their ability to pass on all that vast and superior knowledge. It is their experience as coaches that counts. And being on top teams generally means they have done a lot of coaching

Yes, but not always the case....For example in most sports the coach might not have ever been a good player...But they are great coaches. Many boxing trainers were not good boxers. Many great players suck when they are coaching.

There was a time I was coached by a very skilled (2X World Champion) and he did not give us one good tip. All he kept telling us was "You guys have it, you just need more jumps together". I paid 500.00 to be told I needed more jumps with my team...

World Class jumpers don't always make World Class coaches.

And my main point was that if this guy wants coaching and if he is going to pay for it...At the level he needs a local reputable coach would be more bang for the buck. One on one insted of being one of a group. And the cost savings of not having to travel, take days off of work, hotel 300-350 a day fees....ect.


As for giving it back....Hell I've been doing that for 10 years. I do it becasue someone gave to me. There was a time at my home DZ that there was me and "My Kids". These were people I started jumping with when they had 20 jumps...I'd do 10-20 jumps with them and then go get another 20 jump wonder. Do 20 jumps with them and they they would do two ways while I got a 3rd. This was back in the old Cessna days. Bigge DZ's don't have this family feel anymore.

If a guy wants to learn I teach him...I will jump with anyone, but not on just any jump...Im not doing an 18 way with 3 guys with 100 jumps...Its not safe. But I do 2 ways with people with 10 jumps.

I think we agree, but have differnet views on whats an acceptable level of coaching. I don't think you need ASPD teaching a FJC. They could do it, but it would be over kill, and you would have to pay big.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Emma 0]

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In Reply To
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Not quite. The benefit of being coached by skydivers of this calibre is not in their ability to pass on all that vast and superior knowledge. It is their experience as coaches that counts. And being on top teams generally means they have done a lot of coaching

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Yes, but not always the case....For example in most sports the coach might not have ever been a good player...But they are great coaches. Many boxing trainers were not good boxers. Many great players suck when they are coaching.

There was a time I was coached by a very skilled (2X World Champion) and he did not give us one good tip. All he kept telling us was "You guys have it, you just need more jumps together". I paid 500.00 to be told I needed more jumps with my team...

World Class jumpers don't always make World Class coaches.

Hence my use of the word 'generally'.

But I'd put my money on a 2xWorld Champ being a better coach than a 300 jump FS coach at my local DZ.

Of course some World Class skydivers don't make great coaches. And not all coaching styles suit all learning styles. Again, word of mouth (generally) is a good indicator, and can help you avoid wasting your money.

[SpinDoctor 0]

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But I'd put my money on a 2xWorld Champ being a better coach than a 300 jump FS coach at my local DZ.

You saying i'm a sh!te coach?

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Connextion: British 8 Way Team
www.bodyflight.co.uk
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[Emma 0]

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You saying i'm a sh!te coach?

No, you have 457 jumps, I believe? COMPLETELY different kettle of fish.

Mind you....who coached YOU?

[SpinDoctor 0]

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No, you have 457 jumps

HTF did you know that...? I have only 450 on my profile - and I only just updated my logbook yesterday... are you stalking me - you phreak!?

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Connextion: British 8 Way Team
www.bodyflight.co.uk
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[SpinDoctor 0]

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Mind you....who coached YOU?

Oh...some guys.... A freaky Kiwi called Gus, A wierd Aussie called Darryl, a Brit called Kev, some US guys who have done a bit of 4 way - and some more Brits that have been around a bit too...

Unfortunately, I missed the inspiring debriefs of Saunders... but I am planning some CRW - so you never know...

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Connextion: British 8 Way Team
www.bodyflight.co.uk
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[Emma 0]

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HTF did you know that...? I have only 450 on my profile

You told me on Sunday you twat.

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some US guys who have done a bit of 4 way - and some more Brits that have been around a bit too...

Sure Airspeed and XL speak very highly of YOU! lol

'Yeah, we coached some Brummie guy with hair like George Michael...He's done a bit of 4way with the MoFoSumminks...'

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Unfortunately, I missed the inspiring debriefs of Saunders... but I am planning some CRW - so you never know...

Hey! He's on the British team y'know! Had chicks all over him at Gap!!!