hill work

[skyflybabe 0]

Can anyone help with suggestions of how to fly on the hill more effectively. We are trying as a 4way team to make more use of the 1st 10 to 15 seconds out the door, it seems to take much longer for us to build the 2nd and 3rd points on the hill than when we are at terminal. On average we spend 10 to 15 seconds building the second point.
Any suggestions on how to speed this up?!

[hobbes4star 0]

have you tried to switch your teammates postitions?? just a suggestion.
why jump when you can fly

[weid14 0]

what is happening on the first key? is it level issues or horizonatal seperation?
For level issues -- check to make sure everyone is presenting correctly on exit. Freeze the video on the exit frame where is everyone? If someone is getting cut in, that will cause level issues on first key. TIming -- if the tail leaves the plane slightly early (or conversly point leaves the plane slightly late), on the key you will also have separation anxiety (formation will be stretched with lots of tension).
If there is a general formation explosion on key, there is probably a timing issue on exit, lots of tension in the grips will do this (we had a donut exit like this where we all disappeared from the video and came back in, kind of funny). Make sure everyone is holding "in" on exit.
other than that, make sure you fly presented to the relative wind, do not expect to move as quickly as when at terminal, try not to force things (this will make you cut in potentially).
hope that helps.

[BikerBabe 0]

You know what helped us the most? LOL, you hear it all the time, I'm sure, but it was making sure to cross-reference and really look at our opposite on exit. That way we could dynamically correct for any levels or tension in the exit formation, and get right to that 2nd point. It also allows you to anticipate the move you'll need to make to get to that next point. For example, if you're tail and you have to fly up the hill into a round formation, you'll be able to see where you have to go, and that you'll have to drive up the hill to get there.
I think a lot of people are so worried about the exit that they forget to look across...I know I always did! All it took were a few times really concentrating on it, and we were launching things stable we never thought we could. By stable I mean it only took a second or two for me to feel like the formation was "ready" for the key.
This is really important, since we jump at a Cessna DZ and our time on otter-style doors is quite limited.

[Albatross 0]

The hill is just a slow skydive with the addition of gravity. Some of the problem is that now gravity is now pulling towards the tail and not just down. That means that gravity and the relative wind are at right angels and that can cause some problems with the CG and CS causing dynamic instability. Also because of the lower airspeed one must be careful not to lose stability.
God bless us and God Bless America
Albatross

[billvon 2,444]

>Some of the problem is that now gravity is now pulling towards the tail and not
> just down. That means that gravity and the relative wind are at right angels and
> that can cause some problems with the CG and CS causing dynamic instability.
Uh - no. If someone shot a 4-way team into the sky with a cannon, they could turn points with their bellies to the sky for as long as their airspeed held out (not long.) Not only that, but to them, they would feel gravity working like it always does i.e. they wouldn't feel like they were on their backs.
When someone exits a plane, their "local down" turns 90 degrees for a few moments, then slowly comes back to normal. Everything works the same. If the plane is flying a 110kt jump run, there isn't even any issue with slower air on exit. The only difference is that the entire group will rotate belly-to-earth as they trade their horizontal speed for vertical speed. There's no issue with CG or stability in that case.
-bill von

[billvon 2,444]

>Any suggestions on how to speed this up?!
Depends on the problem. If slower airspeed is causing you to have less authority to turn, drive etc there's not much you can do about that - it's the nature of the beast. You can ask for a faster cut; that will increase your airspeed on the hill.
10-15 seconds, though, isn't just a slow-turning problem. After 8 seconds or so you're off the hill. Are you having level problems? Backslide problems? Judging distances problems? Each one of those has a separate solution.
-bill von

[jashe 0]

Bill,
You seem to have a good knowledge of the way the hill works.
We have been having a lively discussion with our coach over the weekend about the way 4-way block moves work on the hill. Our coach is saying that as the block pairs move if horizontal separation occurs the top pair should work towards the bottom pair as it is easier/faster to work down the hill than for the bottom pair to work up the hill.
There was a lot more to it than this, but the jist of the conversation was that you have 2 forces acting on you 1) your forward movement caused by the run-in speed 2) gravity. Of course more importatntly, you also have the opposite force of air resistance working against you and this is what we use to manoeuvre. However while you are on the hill, travelling up it you are working against gravity (sort of) and vice versa. Most of us just take what has been said as read (because we can't explain it ourselves) but one team-mate would just like to know if this is actually correct and why because it doesn't make sense to him.
Can you shed any light (or can anyone else)?
Yours quizzically,

Jonathan

My liver is evil...I must punish it!

[rehmwa 2]

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Our coach is saying that as the block pairs move if horizontal separation occurs the top pair should work towards the bottom pair as it is easier/faster to work down the hill than for the bottom pair to work up the hill.

I think that's true, but not nearly to the extent you're being told. I think it's true but a minor effect.

below is a discussion about how that "horizontal" separation is really vertical separation (in the relative wind) due to people trying to level out prematurely.

A lot of that comes from not committing fully to the hill. The tendency to try to 'level' out wrt to the earth instead of riding the hill makes it 'feel' like it's hard to get to the 'top' piece. What can happen is the top piece is usually 'up' the hill (airplane side) - both pieces 'cheat' towards level with the earth (they 'leave' the hill) too early - this results in instant levelness problems with the 'up' piece suddenly high in the relative wind - the 'tail' piece feels like it's sluggish because they are not only trying to slide up the hill (it seems like just a horizontal translation to them) but they are also trying to go up in the relative wind. And the wind is slow, so it's a bit sluggish for everyone anyway...

Use your hands to represent this (each hand is a piece). Put them in front of you on a hill with one piece on the angle higher than the other. Now, rotate your hands in place to represent leveling to the earth early. One hand is automatically higher than the other...... (Pic attached - arrow is relative wind, box is ground, the first pic is the start of the block with one piece low and one piece high both correctly presented to the relative wind, the 2nd piece is shortly into the block where each group unconsciously adjusted to their view of the ground = instant vertical misalignment)

Ignore the ground, it'll work.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kirkverner 0]

It starts with a good exit. This is made up of three things, timing, presentation of everyones body to the relative wind, and placement of the piece on the relative wind. Once the piece is launched the group must start flying right away and fix any timing, presentation, or placement mistakes. Then make a good decision on keying the formation to transition to point two. This is both an objective and subjective decision. Objective, are the grips on. Subjective, is everyone ready to go, someone may have the proper grips but be on their side in the formation, they're not ready. Lastly, isolate cross-referencing to the group and don't get tricked by the horizon. Alot of jumpers want to get belly to earth during this transition and that can cause huge levels to occur.
Practice,Practice,Practice

ParacleteXP

[rehmwa 2]

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don't get tricked by the horizon. Alot of jumpers want to get belly to earth during this transition and that can cause huge levels to occur.

I like how pros are so much better than me at getting a concept across.

(it was pleasure meeting you at SVCO a couple weeks ago, BTW. I learned a ton watching you and Samer - thanks)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants