Definitions of canopy experience.

[DocPop 1]

Many canopy manufacturers publish recommended limits for canopy loading based on pilot experience (e.g.):

Student
Novice
Intermediate
Advanced
Experienced

Is there a published definition of these terms?

If so - where? If not, then the whole idea of the limits has a big hole in it (ie. how does a pilot know which "bucket" to realisitically place themselves in?)

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[frost 1]

This might do:

http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/W-L_Interpretations.pdf

or this:

http://www.icaruscanopies.aero/choosing.htm

SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.

[Mark4 0]

You can not use these categories in that way as they vary with the canopy. IMO this makes the "buckets" as advertised by PD and Aerodyne about as useful as a chocolate teapot!

Let's assume I'm an Advanced kinda guy, that would mean I could jump

A Sabre 2 loaded at 1.0
http://www.performancedesigns.com/products.asp?product=sa
A Pilot loaded at 1.3
http://www.flyaerodyne.com/fly/products/pilotSelector.asp
A Katana loaded at 1.35
http://www.performancedesigns.com/products.asp?product=ka
A Mamba loaded at 1.8
http://www.flyaerodyne.com/fly/products/mambaSelector.asp

Hmmm, anyone spot a problem here?
I would stick with Brian's wingloading chart as a guide and then seek local expert advice.

[frost 1]

There is a big difference between manufacturer recommended wing loadings for a particular canopy type and size (which will probably always remain on the conservative side for obvious reasons) and defining the skill levels attached to each term as per original poster. Let's not confuse the two. I think PD and Icarus definitions are excellent for clarifying what those skill levels mean and Brian's chart is a great guide line for people that fall in between those categories.

[virgin-burner 1]

we've gone at each others throat already, so lets start new..
for pd, i should be between intermediate and advanced, for icarus, i'm in the class 4 (high performance) area.

i'm jumping a completely square sabre 150 close to 1.4

now if i look at billvons or brians charts.. well, i shouldnt be where i am now. and yea, i'm playing with the thought of downsizing at the end of the season.. i make a little over 100 jumps per year and never really stop, even during winter..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[frost 1]

Quote

we've gone at each others throat already, so lets start new.. Smile

for pd, i should be between intermediate and advanced, for icarus, i'm in the class 4 (high performance) area.

i'm jumping a completely square sabre 150 close to 1.4

now if i look at billvons or brians charts.. well, i shouldnt be where i am now. and yea, i'm playing with the thought of downsizing at the end of the season.. i make a little over 100 jumps per year and never really stop, even during winter..

I love hearing the personal "success" stories of the "but i do it this way" beginner skydivers. Just last weekend we were laughing very hard at the "yeah, i know, but..." folks in Jeffro's camp. If you already "know", then there is no reason to take the course. If you are taking the course, then listen, don't talk over your instructor's advice.

"Yeah, i know that Bill Von's and Brian Germain's guide lines say that i am way ahead of myself, but!! I make a 100 jumps a year and i dont stop jumping even in the winter! So even though they say i shouldn't downsize and i respect their experience, i am thinking of downsizing."

Fucking great! Go for it.

You, as well as some others on this site, are a "know it all 100 jump wonder" with 20 times more posts than jumps, who got called out and ridiculed for his "expert" advice in serious topics, possibly related to the "we've gone at each other throat" comment? Wrong. Me and billvon have been at each other throats, but he at least has A LOT of experience and is an expert in the subject matter he speaks of. You? you just speak. we've never been at each other throats, that would be a waste of my time.

P.S. in no way should this be considered a personal attack, this is simply a statement of fact.

[virgin-burner 1]

u're really a nice person, i must say..

i rather go with my instructors advice than listening to some "pro" that keeps on insulting people on the interweb for no good reason other than making themselves feel better about how much cojones they're supposed to have.

and just for the records, 99% of my posts have been in the bonfire, which is rather social, a skill you obviously dont posses.. but you're a skygod, thats cool too!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[frost 1]

aww... really? you're just hurting my feelings... i am gonna go cry now.

What's up with deleting your post like a little girl? if you have an opinion stand up and fight for it, dont be a little sissy. not to worry i quoted it for you.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Both of you - quit it.

Discuss your ideas respectfully but resorting to name calling (skygod), or attacks to the person (not the idea) will result in a quick swipe of the banhammer.

Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[virgin-burner 1]

i'm trying to act nice, u dont. i think its smarter to step back to let your ego take the place.

@ian: so "sissy" isnt a PA, but skygod is? just for my understanding..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[davelepka 4]

I'm in agreement with Frost about blatantly disregarding the opinions of 'experts', namely that of Bill Von and B Germain. I understand that you can't take every word of every poster to heart, but these two have been widely accepted as experts by the vast majority of jumpers, and their advice should not be disregarded.

I also have to say that being nice, friendly or social is not the point of this thread. That is what the bonfire is for, this in an informational thread. Like it or not, Frost made serveral valid points that could prove to be valuable to anyone willing to read them for the information they contian, not the delivery of said info.

As much as I hate to continue to agree, he's right about deleting your post. You should stand by your position, no matter who opposes it. In my view, it really supports that fact that Frost is correct because you deleted it.

For those that missed it, the gist of it was this - He's already ahead of the generally accepted curve when it comes to canopy selection. Even though he's aware of the Bill Von checklist, and the B Germain WL chart, he's planning to do 100 jumps this year and wants to downsize again at the end of the year. He also jumps during the winter, indicating that he will remain curent all throughout the years.

Sorry to bust your nuts pal, but if you're going to be dumb, you had better be tough. Tough enough to stand behind what you say, and tough eough to take the hit when, or if, you pile in one day.

[frost 1]

go back to bonfire buddy

[ianmdrennan 2]

My post was directed at both of you.

If I sat and listed every offence it'd be a waste of time.

Now, again to everyone posting in this thread, I would advise that people keep this respectful, or in PM's if you want to start taking swipes at one another.

Performance Designs Factory Team

[virgin-burner 1]

well, u summed it up nicely after frost also quoted it. fine by me. but in the interest of keeping the thread "informational", i deleted it, while mr. cool-as-ice keeps on going with PA's.

what you forgot to mention is that i said i'd rather listen to my instructors and their say, than some expert that has basically nothing else to say but that i'm a dickhead. great and informational, everyone that knows me does know that i'm a dickhead. so what?

now, if you cant keep it civil (not you), well..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[davelepka 4]

Quote

what you forgot to mention is that i said i'd rather listen to my instructors and their say, than some expert that has basically nothing else to say but that i'm a dickhead.

No sir. I agreed with you that you cannot listen to very word from every poster on this board. You don't know who's legit, and who's a 13 year old kid killing time.

I pointed out that the experts you were not listening too were not 'mystery' people, but folks who have been recognized as experst by the majority of jumper, namely Bill Von and Brian Germain.

Again, you would do better in these informational threads to read carefully, and pull the facts presented out of the presentation.

[DocPop 1]

Quote

This might do:

http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/W-L_Interpretations.pdf

or this:

http://www.icaruscanopies.aero/choosing.htm

Getting this thread back on course - thanks Frost. I searched on here but missed these pages on the manufacturers' websites.

This is exactly what I was looking for.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[dharma1976 0]

so now you are angry cause you think that we are attacking you when in reality in the end the only person who is going to get hurt from aggressively downsizing without the jumps to back it up isn't Frost.

There are like 800 personally stories that everyone who has responded to your post could tell you about the young dumb and full of cum kid that pounded into the ground because he thought he was gods next gift to canopy piloting. You might be gods next gift to canopy piloting, but you still have to make it through your fuck ups... and they will happen.

The larger canopy will just give you that much more of a margin for your error for when it comes.

Dave
PS I am still not coming to the swoop thing at the farm unless a certain bachelor party gets canceled and the wood floor fairy shows up at my house and does my floors.

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[piahenzi 0]

Quote

You might be gods next gift to canopy piloting, but you still have to make it through your fuck ups... and they will happen.

The larger canopy will just give you that much more of a margin for your error for when it comes.

I'm sure if my bad judgment on the rears that fateful day had been under the Velo and not the Crossfire, I'd not be posting here right now.....nuff said....

[dharma1976 0]

Quote

Quote

You might be gods next gift to canopy piloting, but you still have to make it through your fuck ups... and they will happen.

The larger canopy will just give you that much more of a margin for your error for when it comes.

I'm sure if my bad judgment on the rears that fateful day had been under the Velo and not the Crossfire, I'd not be posting here right now.....nuff said....

my bad judgement day on the rears came under the velo...I emptied the pond practically and everyone thought i died...they even started calling me tsunami...

I got hella lucky and just wound up with a clicky hip...

Take your time you have the rest of your life to skydive and learn to fly yoru canopy awesome...

D

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.