Max Wingloading for 280 jumps

[Fast 0]

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What his friends think is relavent and it works both ways. If those that watch him on every jump think he is ready for it then he probably is but if they don't then he is most certainly not. This is a much better theory than the generalizations that are currently applied.

That IS what they are GENERALIZATIONS.

I agree that the one size or one shape rule is a good rule to start from but that still doesn't apply every time.

Generalizations are dangerous. I know people that have 200 to 1000 jumps on stilettos and need to be on a size larger sabre 2.

There are lots of what-ifs. His friends opinions don't mean shit if they don't understand swooping or other things that he wants to get into. His friends opinions don't mean dick if they are 100 jump wonders. Cause they don't know enough to be giving advice in the first place.

Now if he is friends with someone on the PD Factory team or some other experienced swoopers then thier opinion might matter.

There is one thing about generalizations that you are missing. Sure, it is possible that a guy with 1000 jumps has never learned some skills and lacks experience that most people with 1000 jumps have. Maybe he just doesn't get canopy flight. The problem is, it doesn't work the other way. At 200 jumps you just don't have it no matter what and there is no way that you could. It isn't enough time. You are missing key skills that you can't get without getting out there and jumping.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[padawonMonkey 0]

Another generalization. I am telling you that there are people in this and every aspect of life that are ahead of the curve. Just as there are those that are behind it.

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"But I'm Just doin what I have to do to survive"-MM

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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What his friends think is relavent and it works both ways. If those that watch him on every jump think he is ready for it then he probably is

Nope.

How people react to parachute performance differences is not predictable based on previous experience under larger and/or less agressive wings and changes between such canopies.

I started with a Turbo Z 205, made a dozen jumps between a Sabre 170 and Monarch 175, and downsized to a Monarch 155 without issue. I'd passed AFF in seven jumps and guys who'd been arround since before I was born said I had talent.

Going between a Batwing 135 (elliptical) and Stiletto 120 (elliptical, similar turn rate, more sensitive to control input, and with a longer recovery arc) was a much bigger deal than going from a 205 to 155. I got away with grass stains and bruised heels which hurt for a few months. Going from my Monarch 155 to the Stiletto 120 (2 sizes, 1 shape, just like the original poster's friend) or Batwing 135 to the Samurai 105 I have now (2 sizes, same shape) would have put me in the titanium club or worse.

People who think that skipping sizes and combining size and major shape changes are acceptable just haven't been jumping long enough to learn they're wrong from first or second-hand experience.

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I agree that the one size or one shape rule is a good rule to start from but that still doesn't apply every time.

Unpredictability means that it should apply every downsize. One can argue that diifferences in training, learning, and focus change the minimum prudent number of jumps between changes. The other side of that is that because performance under low-stress situations is not a good predictor of how people perform when things go wrong, people should spend enough time under each size to have adapted their muscle memory and actually had bad experiences.

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Generalizations are dangerous. I know people that have 200 to 1000 jumps on stilettos and need to be on a size larger sabre 2.

The problem is that there are other people who should be under bigger/more conservative canopies that you don't know about until they screw up.

It's not hard to land highly loaded canopies straight in with minimal experience. Based on a couple of demo jumps I didn't think an Extreme FX 104 was a big deal compared to my Batwing 134 when I had 500 jumps. I made another hundred jumps on that Batwing. got my Stiletto 120, and made 600 jumps on that. In that time I learned how wrong I was.

It might be interesting to split these polls up into over/under 1000 jumps (if you keep downsizing you will eventually be surprised) or over/under 10 years (hang arround dropzones long enough and you will see enough people learning the hard way).

[davelepka 4]

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I am telling you that there are people in this and every aspect of life that are ahead of the curve.

Yep. Without a doubt.

There are also guys who look promising, but have just been lucky so far.

If you could tell me, in advance, which guys 'get it', and which guys are just lucky, then you might have something. If you can't tell me that, you're taking a chance that a guys luck might run out at the wrong time.

The solution is to err on the side of caution for EVERYONE. A jumper who 'gets it' can make excellent progress, and have alot of fun leanring to swoop while following a more mainstream progression of canopy types and sizes.

[Darius11 12]

Look at my jump numbers. I am in no way an experienced canopy pilot. However I am one of the guys who wants to swoop.

That being said I think people learn at different rates. Telling someone you’re not good enough or experienced enough doesn’t work a lot of times. I think the best way to pursue this is by setting up a skill challenge.

Set realistic goals like landing his canopy within 5 meters 5 times in a row. Doing a 270 hook and going threw a pre-designated lane a few times in a row in different conditions. Make a deal if he does all those things great get a faster canopy if he can’t do those things then he should get couching and keep on practicing. I am just using these as examples the list should be longer.


From my personal experience setting goals is a much better way to control canopy progression then simply a number.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[jenkincb00 0]

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Look at my jump numbers. I am in no way an experienced canopy pilot. However I am one of the guys who wants to swoop.

That being said I think people learn at different rates. Telling someone you’re not good enough or experienced enough doesn’t work a lot of times. I think the best way to pursue this is by setting up a skill challenge.

Set realistic goals like landing his canopy within 5 meters 5 times in a row. Doing a 270 hook and going threw a pre-designated lane a few times in a row in different conditions. Make a deal if he does all those things great get a faster canopy if he can’t do those things then he should get couching and keep on practicing. I am just using these as examples the list should be longer.


From my personal experience setting goals is a much better way to control canopy progression then simply a number.

yeah some1 with 280 jumps doing a 270 approach great advice

[Darius11 12]

That’s my point dude.

If he can't do it it should show him he has not seen what his current canopy can do. If he can do it and does it great over and over again then maybe he is skilled enough to handle something faster

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Cloggy 1]

I'm at similar jump levels and wingload, so maybe I'm not the person to give advice, but at least I can tell from my experiences.

My reasoning went something like this when looking for a new canopy:
-I want to progress quickly, for that I need a challenging, fast and small canopy (and the 'cool' factor is in there somewhere as well, I want to do those long awesome swoops too...).
-It is a lot of money so I don't want to buy something that I will get bored with in a few hundred jumps and have to sell off at a loss. So I need something that is small and fast and that will still be fun after 500 jumps, even if I know it may not the most sensible thing to do (money factor).
-But don't worry, even if I know it's too much for me at my present skill level and I know I have to be really carefull the first xx jumps, I'll survive and master the canopy after a while. Because I'm a great canopy pilot , I think I have a good feeling for flying and am always learning and always have good stand-up landings on target (overestimation of own skills).

My guess is that quite a few people end up buying a canopy now that requires future skills. If you're careful (or lucky?) you'll learn without injury, but as margins are small, the inevitable mistakes could hurt a lot. And when something unexpected happens (landing out in a forest/backyard, avoiding canopy collision) the skills are not there yet to save your ass...

I progressed slowly to Sabre2 170, I really felt and feel kept back going this slowly: regulations over here...
But on the other hand, at every step there was something to learn, things I thought I mastered did work slightly different under a new canopy. Because the progression steps weren't that big, margins for error are larger: I could try new tricks, master them, without hurting or killing myself: instead of just surviving you have the room to actually play and learn something about the canopy (use that list of canopy control exercises that is on here somewhere).

This story is getting way too long, what it boils down to is: give yourself the time to progress and learn, it could save your ass later on (and IMO will make you a better pilot).

Going from a 1.3w/l ragged square to 1.7w/l elliptical in one step does not make sense to me. Spend at least some money to rent an intermediate (e.g. semi-e at 1.3 w/l) for say 30-50 jumps. It'll give you also an idea what type of canopy and w/l you're ok with.

Initially I thought I'd be bored with the Sabre2 quickly (sometimes am: riser pressure/recovery arc): now I know it'll take me a few hundred jumps more to have my 180's/270's consistent. Before that time I feel I don't have any business jumping smaller/faster. Needless to say that I became a bit more humble after botching up a few landings even recently, something that would have ended quite differently with a small elliptical.

Bart

[padawonMonkey 0]

Just to clarify what I meant by "The one size or one shape rule is a good place to start but it doesn't always apply."

Say you have a tallented student weighing 150lbs who starts out on a PD210, I think it is reasonable for that student to jump to a 190 sabre2 thats more than one size or one shape.

On the opposite end say a I have 2000 jump guy who is on a Velocity 103 and just can't seem to get it. Well he has no bussiness going one size or on shape lower.

For Everything but those extreme examples the one size or one shape should apply.

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"But I'm Just doin what I have to do to survive"-MM

[damion75 0]

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Another generalization. I am telling you that there are people in this and every aspect of life that are ahead of the curve. Just as there are those that are behind it.

Of course in every aspect of life there are also those who are ahead of the curve, and those who think that they are ahead of the curve.

Sometimes, those who just think they are ahead will have friends who agree with them because they are more experienced than those friends and act cool. But that still doesn't make them actually ahead of the curve.

Of course in skydiving, everyone is ahead of the curve because we are all naturals... and of course in skydiving, thinking that you are better than you are can be terminal.

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[Fast 0]

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I'm at similar jump levels and wingload, so maybe I'm not the person to give advice, but at least I can tell from my experiences.

My reasoning went something like this when looking for a new canopy:
-I want to progress quickly, for that I need a challenging, fast and small canopy (and the 'cool' factor is in there somewhere as well, I want to do those long awesome swoops too...).

The thing is, you don't! It is possible to progress faster on a larger wing than a smaller wing. You have to learn skills to make it go fast rather than just having a smaller canopy to go faster. You learn more faster on a larger wing. Though at some point you have to downsize to go farther/faster.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[scottswoops 0]

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[reClue your buddy in, the DZO is pushing it with what he'll allow. He's being very liberal, and your buddy should be thankful for that, and try not to let his ego spiral him into the ground.
ply]


As for Daves response, I think he's dead on with his statement. This simple fact that he wants to load a canopy at 1.7 with 200ish jumps, demonstrates lack of experience, wisdom, and general intelligence. Anybody heard of the process of natural selection?

"Try not! Do, or do not.... there is no try."
--Yoda

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[yardhippie 0]

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I am very passionate about this since I was "that guy" and I want nothing more then to help people not make the same mistakes.

You too?
I too was "that guy" everyone told me I'd get hurt.
Guess what. I did. Im glad Im alive. Its a tough pill to swallow when your ortho surgeon tells you he doesnt know if you'll ever walk right again, much less run.
If anyone wants details, how "current" I was, etc. pm me. Im happy to tell my story, if only one person listens and it saves them thats great.

I learned my lesson. I listen to my peers, I seek advice from more advanced pilots, and think about how many people think that "they'll be fine".

A few of us had this conversation last night. All were more advanced than me, and some of them are getting tired of repeatedly telling folks how it is, and them not listening, and then those people get hurt or die.

My advice: listen to those around you because if you dont its not a matter of "if" you'll become a statistic, its a matter of "when".

Im tired of seeing my friends get hurt, and Ive only been in the sport for 5 years.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865