Flying and landing Stiletto 135

[tomin 0]

Hi,

I am just about to downsize from Esprit 150 to Stiletto 135. I was wondering what to expect and especially how to treat it right. Any tips?

Could someone tell me something about the Stiletto (135) that I should have in mind before take a ride? ? ?

Cheers for that!
Milan

[parachutist 1]

A little bit of input gives a lot of response on that canopy. This will be especially noticable since you're downsizing to an elliptical from a square canopy. the easiest way to stay safe under your new canopy is to know what not to do and what to do:

Not to do list:
======================
Do not make hard turns at low altitude (arms all the way up when you are below 200 ft.)
Do not try to land in a tight landing area until you are very experienced with this canopy (have big open field area for landing)
Do not deploy the first 20+ times at low altitude .. pull at 8k+ ft and play with the canopy to learn its characteristics)

Do list:
========================
- Pull high, as previously mentioned. this will allow you to learn how the canopy responds to inputs (front risers, rear risers, and brake toggles)
- While above decision altitude (2000+ ft), find the stall point. Pull down gradually on your brake toggles until your canopy rocks back and begins dropping you fast toward earth... then let up on both toggles. This is the stall point and you need to practice it many times up high in order to become familiar with the feeling... If you understand what a stall feels like then you'll understand how to avoid inducing a stall near the ground.
- Land in an open area and refrain from inducing extra speed near the ground. this canopy has plenty of speed using a straight-in approach.
- Flare only within the range that you learned up high while finding stall point, and flare evenly with both arms (think about your hands and where they are while you're flaring. Keep them both exactly even. The easiest way to do this is to flare with both in close to cener of your body, in front of you.


Then there are finicky openings, which you're not accustomed to with a larger esprit: watch the horizon and keep it level when you reach back for your pilot chute and while the canopy is deploying. There is a high probability you will end up with a spinning malfunction unless you pay attention to stable body position during deployment.

These ideas are a very brief list of some of the most important issues concerning downsizing froma 150 square canopy to a 135 elliptical, and it is certainly not all you need to know. I suggest at your low experience level looking for some experienced canopy piloting coaching in person in your local area. Spending a few dollars on coaching beats spending tens of thousands in hospital

Chris

[tomin 0]

Hi Chris,

Thank You for Your replay. Very useful for me.

I had a few rides on semi-eliptical Turbo ZX 145, but Turbo does not have nice flare, and the Stiletto should have I think.

Truth is that I`m maybe downsizing a but early, but advice like Yours should keep me safe.

Will listen to Your "Do list".

Cheers for that!

Milan

[GQ_jumper 4]

Well no on has asked this question yet so I'm going to, why are you downsizing to a Stilleto 135 at your jump number? According to your profile you will be loading this at 1.36 and only have 200 jumps. You should seriously reconsider your decision.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[tomin 0]

Yes, You are right, but call me brave or stupid :) just a joke.

Well, everybody (should) know their own limits, think I perceive mine.

Chris gave me very nice advice, I'll stick to that.

Fly High !

[dharma1976 0]

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Yes, You are right, but call me brave or stupid :) just a joke.

Well, everybody (should) know their own limits, think I perceive mine.

Chris gave me very nice advice, I'll stick to that.

The only thing I will say is somethign that took the titanium to teach me...walk before you run man walk before you run...

Also, that I learned most of what I know about swooping and landing on a sabre2 170 and then applied it to smaller canopies and then to ellipticals...and not the other way around.

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[Tonto 1]

Hi There,

You're breaking a couple of cardinal rules here, and if people seem abrupt, it's because we have seen 100's of people argue how good they are, and how they know their limitations - and be wrong. Truth is, most of them don't die, but many spend at least a year out of the sport, if they bother coming back at all.

So.

1. You're downsizing and changing to a more aggressive planform at the same time.

2. You're pushing the limits of your experience loading any canopy at nearly 1.4 at 200 dives - and the Stilleto is not a toy.

3. Add ANY variable here - an out landing, traffic, turbulence - and you have a complete events cascade, with you being the event.

According to the PD website:

CANOPY (SQ. FT.) Stiletto-135 Varies with Landing Conditions
MIN.(Lbs.)

STUDENT (Lbs.)N/R
NOVICE (Lbs.)N/R
INT (Lbs.) N/R
ADV (Lbs.) 162
EXP (Lbs.) 189
MAX.(Lbs.) 229.5
SPAN (FT.) 19.02
CHORD (Root/Tip) (FT.) 7.61/5.32
ASPECT RATIO 2.68:1

I've attached the Stilleto flight charecteristics document for your records. Doubtless after reading it you will be certain this is the canopy for you. I do not. The Stilleto has a MAXIMUM wing loading placarded as 1.3 Lbs per square foot. You will exceed that on your first jump.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[tomin 0]

I know You are right about this.

Think I can try it, after all, if that seems to be "too fast too furious" I`ll be back on Esprit 150.

CCI will allowed me a few jumps, someone will film me, and then we`ll consider what should I do.

Hook turns, low turns etc. are not my intentions.

Appreciate Your comments. Really do.

Cheers!

Fly High !

[Tonto 1]

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CCI will allowed me a few jumps, someone will film me, and then we`ll consider what should I do.

That seems prudent, although the truth is, if you survive your 1st jump, you will beleive that you will survive the next. That is not always the case. If someone loaned you a Ferrari for the weekend, would you really be happy going back to you hatchback on Monday morning?

The only reason to downsize is to go faster. Going faster reduces your margin for error. And you will make a mistake. We all do. Only one in ten of my landings are exactly the way I want them, so by definition 9 out of 10 are a failure. Sure, I'm picky, and the mistakes are small, but I want perfection. That's why I keep practicing.

A 99.9% success rate will send you to hospital once every 1000 skydives. You need to be much, much better than 99.9% good.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[tomin 0]

Absolutely truth.

If I say now that I am giving up, no one will believe me, not even me :)

Fly High !

[dragon2 0]

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Hook turns, low turns etc. are not my intentions.

Nobody PLANS a low turn, but they may end up having to make one or THINK they have to make one anyway due to unexpected traffic, unexpected obstacles, wanting to land into the wind, get-back-itis, mis perception, ...

With 200 jumps, are you 200% SURE you can do a low turn safely, ie flat turn/flare turn? Also in an unexpected situation? If you make a mistake on a canopy like that, see ya....

There's a reason that over here (The Netherlands) you are required to have at least 500 jumps and be current to jump a canopy like that. Other countries have similar rules. Think you know better?

Also, if you do not plan on swooping, what are you doing on a canopy and a WL like that anyway? This canopy is capable of diving to the ground in a hurry and picking up loads of speed. If you don't swoop you probably have no clue how to deal with both if it happens to you unexpectedly. Result: ouch, at the very least.
My personal pet peeve

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[davelepka 4]

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CCI will allowed me a few jumps, someone will film me, and then we`ll consider what should I do.

What do you think you'll be doing on those jumps? My guess would be carefully planning your landing, focusing on your pattern, and in general really trying hard not to fuck up. After all, there's an audience, a camera, and your future with the canopy on the line.

Lets say that goes well, and you stay with the canopy. Your confidence is up, and you fell great. Do youreally think you'll apply the same level of effort and focus to every jump after that? What happens when you relax, and take the canopy for granted.

Above all, why does PD reccomend 500 jumps minnimum for a Stiletto? What do they stand to gain from making this reccomendation?

What is they're minnimum jump number reccomendation for the Sabre? Or the Sabre2? How about the Spectre? There is no minnimum. Some canopies are made for anyone to jump, some canopies are made for experiecned canopy pilots.

There's a saying in the US, "If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough".

[skybytch 259]

You're gonna do what you want to do, regardless of what anyone here says, but...

All of the really experienced people say it's best to not change both the size and the shape of what you are flying at the same time. Find a Stiletto 150 to borrow. Put some jumps on it before you jump the 135.

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Do not try to land in a tight landing area until you are very experienced with this canopy (have big open field area for landing)

Understand that this means you must have good spots on all your jumps between now and when you are very experienced with this canopy. No bad spots for 200+ jumps... yeah, good luck with that.

[freakydiver 0]

Yah I'd stick to the advice I wanted to hear too. Life is so much eassier that way.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[Foursprouts 0]

Hi Milan,
I know you and so I know you will jump the stiletto135. I know I am kinda new to the jumping as I was finishing my AFF when you were in the UK but I do know that you can really mess yourself up with a canopy like that. The guy you got the canopy off had to have metal put in his leg and he had 1000's of jumps. The other full time AFF instructor here still has a limp from a bad broken leg from landing a similar canopy and that was years ago and he also had 1000's of jumps, statistically you are far more likely to brake yourself than them. Because you want the canopy it shows you are agresively trying to progress in the sport which can be a good thing but also a quick way to hurt yourself if you go about it wrong. All I am going to say is be carefull and I hope you are not in a cast when we all come out to Serbia this summer as that would suck not being able to do a few jumps with you.

[davelepka 4]

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The guy you got the canopy off had to have metal put in his leg and he had 1000's of jumps.

That shit is fucking incredible.

Dude 'A' with 1000's of jumps puts himself in the hospital, and then sells the canopy to a guy 'B' who has 200 jumps.

Guy 'B' is determined to jump the thing despite sound avdice to the contrary. He figures, "What could go wrong?".

I couldn't make that shit up.

[GQ_jumper 4]

Dude, everyone on this site is trying to give you sound advice and you're not taking any of it, so why the hell did you even bother posting?

Best of luck to you with your new canopy, I just hope your first jump on it isn't your last, I've seen enough people die in the last year.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[AdD 1]

I had a few rides on semi-eliptical Turbo ZX 145, but Turbo does not have nice flare, and the Stiletto should have I think.

Hey man, why don't you try a Stiletto 150 first if you can and see what you think. I downsized to a 150 loaded at 1.2 at fewer jumps than you and looking back I was barely ready. I had a close call doing a 90 carve and almost hit a hanger, the only reason I survived unscratched was that I had practiced HIGH speed flat turns up high and can now turn over 100 degrees losing only a few feet of altitude. You need to make your mistakes on a more forgiving canopy when learning to swoop.
Also, you can't compare a Turbo ZX to a stiletto, just mentionning the two in the same sentence suggests to me that you may be making a rash choice. Anyway, I can't really say more than that because I almost bought a 135 myself, and the only reason I didn't was advice from my friends who are now my fellow instructors.

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[AndyMan 7]

Again, I find myself stating something that should be obvious.

You have absolutely no business flying that canopy.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[tomin 0]

Hi everyone,

Really do appreciate Your effort to convince me not to jump Stiletto, and for giving me these friendly advices.

I`m aware of the fact that I`m rushing with this, but after all You made me think. Think a lot.

Cheers for that dear colleagues!

[dharma1976 0]

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Hi everyone,

Really do appreciate Your effort to convince me not to jump Stiletto, and for giving me these friendly advices.

I`m aware of the fact that I`m rushing with this, but after all You made me think. Think a lot.

Cheers for that dear colleagues!

Hey man I just dont want to have to sell you one of my "got titannium?" shirts

Cheers and blue skies

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[pilotdave 0]

When I started jumping (not all that long ago), the stilleto was like the ultimate high performance canopy. I'm sure there were more extreme canopies out there, but the stilleto was the canopy all the hot swoopers had at every DZ I went to. It was something only the most experienced canopy pilots were jumping where I was. To a new jumper, it was a scary canopy that deserved respect.

Tons of higher performance canopies have come out since then. But I still think of the stilleto as a really high performance canopy. I've never jumped one... the thought of it freaks me out a little even though I know I could handle it fine. I've jumped a similar canopy, but it was one that wasn't around when I was a student. I didn't have any impression of it from back then.

So now that there are velocities and VXs and katanas, etc, what makes the stilleto any less scary to newer jumpers than it was to me when I was first starting? AFF students are getting much better canopy control lessons nowadays than I had. Are they so much better that a stilleto is no big deal after a couple hundred jumps or less? Something tells me no...

Dave

[davelepka 4]

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So now that there are velocities and VXs and katanas, etc, what makes the stilleto any less scary to newer jumpers than it was to me when I was first starting?

Their own delusions.

[AndyMan 7]

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Their own delusions.

No, it's more than that.

A Stiletto is less scary because newer people didn't do their first jump on an f-111 Manta, or a Raven 4 like I did. Newer people are doing their first jump on a ZP canopy, and are comfortable at a 1.0 wingloading under a Saber2 before they get off their 22 jump student training.

It's only common sense that they're going to progress quicker than the people who came before them.

Student canopy training is far better than it used to be.
Student canopies are far better than they used to be.

Add those two together, and students are progressing far faster then they used to.

And yes, their own delusions are just as fantastic as they used to be, too. Some things just don't change.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[pilotdave 0]

How many DZs are using such modern student canopies like sabre2s? I know some are, but is it really a significant percentage of students that are learning on ZP canopies?

Dave