Risk vs. Progression

[BlindBrick 0]

I am in the entry stages of what is likely to be a years-long progression towards flying ultra-high performance canopies. Towards that goal, a year ago I bought a Safire II that gives me a 1.2 WL. I've worked hard on learning the characteristics of the canopy and flying it in all situations. I have encountered a problem though. I'm a big jumper and my canopy is so large that the front riser pressure is almost impossible. When using both hands to pull a single riser down, I move it less than an inch which results in a turn rate that's far less than what I get with a harness shift.

So far, I've just accepted that I have no front risers and focused on the other inputs. Lately; however, I have begun to wonder if not getting experience with risers at this early stage will hinder my piltoing later down the road.

Looking around, I've seen some used canopies in the 230 sf range. That'd give me approximately a 1.4 WL. To be honest, I feel that that WL in a worst-case scenario is doable for me, but it's on the very edge of my ability. By personal preference, I'd rather not cut my safety margin so thin at this stage. OTOH, I worry that if I do not start working on risers now, I will reduce the same margin in the future by virtue of inexperience with the risers or bad toggle habits.

I guess what I am wondering is at what point does the risk of inhibiting future progression surpass those associated with flying an aggressive Wing Loading?

-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[tr027 0]

IMHO, I would direct you to the senior pilots at your DZ that are familiar/know your abilities, to help you make that decision. It's doable, but not right for everybody, and everybody has different risk tolerances.

"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

[dharma1976 0]

find a canopy coach....ask him what he thinks of your plots, and in the end, listen only to those who say what you want to hear.

But if you want to stay in one piece, check your ego in the parking lot. Find someone who will give you canopy coaching and do it, but when I was in your shoes, I only listened to what I wanted to hear, and then sat for 4 months telling myself I was an idiot while I healed.

yes you might be the next jeffro, but remember you only have a hundred and somethign skydives...you just dont have the experience.

recently my friend with a wingloading of what you are aiming towards on a stilletto pounded into the ground loaded at"ONLY" 1.2

1.2 can still bite you in the ass hard and spit you out.

1.2 can still give you double pelvis femus and a lot of titanium

1.2 can still break your back ribs and burst your gallbladder.

so dont look at 1,2 as a simple oh I can do it.

respect it.

get coaching

keep your insides inside your body please

Dave

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[Zoter 0]

Dont you think that any wingloading can have the same consequences?
Its the decison making process and attitude under that wing that makes the difference....right?
At least up to the 'upper edge' of a 'reasonable' wing loading...

Wing loading ( up to a point) isnt necessarily the problem....its what you do and the respect you give your canopy under a loading that makes the significant difference...
Correct me please if I am wrong

[JohanW 0]

Man, I envy you.

For the longest time, I could frontriser a canopy, but with harness input, I could only produce a turn rate far less than what I would get with a little bit of frontriser input.

But it didn't worry me. And with you 'in the entry stages of [...] a years-long progression' maybe you can work hard at, learn a lot about and have fun doing what works .. for you.

People I see, hear and read about flying ultra-high performance canopies have almost as many different techniques as there are pilots. Not all of them fly the same canopy, too. Why do you think that is?

It's hard to give advice on an Internet forum, especially to a 320 lbs exit weight guy who'll be loading a student-size canopy at expert wingloading (I looked at the PD Stiletto loading chart for that statement). Canopies do not scale linearly.

However, there is no reason to get into bad toggle habits now. Get canopy coaching, don't listen to what someone on duh Innernet says just because it's what you want to hear, and fly the living daylights out of that Safire, like no lighter jumper will ever be able to do.

Have fun, be safe,

Johan.
I am. I think.

[thepollster 0]

Quote

I'm a big jumper and my canopy is so large that the front riser pressure is almost impossible. When using both hands to pull a single riser down, I move it less than an inch

Out of curiousity, can you do pull-ups? I've never flown that big of a canopy at a decent wingloading, but I have flown Safires at lower wing-loads than you have, and never had a problem with front riser pressure. I am wondering if it actually has to do with the size of canopy or your strengh.

[davelepka 4]

You may have more luck with your front risers if you slow the canopy down first. Go into deep brakes and hold it there while the canopy settles down, look up at your dive loop (or loops) and then just reach up and grab them. You'll have a window of a few seconds where the pressure will be reduced, and you should be able to pull them down.

[BlindBrick 0]

Kind of an omnibus reply here.

I'm not really using this thread to get "permission" to fly a higher wingloading. What I am really looking for is input from those with more experience than me on how critcal getting comfortable with front risers, early in your progression, is. To be honest, if I could get front risers to work on my canopy, I'd be happy to stay with it for hundreds of more jumps. The sheer lift created by a zp wing that size is unbelievable. I get more surf on a sedate straight in approach than some of the guys and gals hooking the same WL on smaller canopies. And for that matter, if mastering risers early is not super critcal, I'll find a way to deal with my fustration and keep on wringing my current canopy out.

I've also talked to the three hp canopy pilots at my dz. It's just ot me that this is essentially a risk to benefit analysis for me, and I'd like more than three opinions to help with the decision making process.

Finally, I'll admit that my upper body stregnth is not the best, but when I do not think that's a factor here. I pull down on my fronts and I get that 1/2 inch or so, and then I am pulling myself up the risers without the riser coming down anymore. Granted I can't hold it very long, but I am pulling myself up the riser.

-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[chachi 0]

Dave made a good suggestion. Flaring the canopy will bring the front riser preasure down.

You asked how important front riser flight is? I would say every single control surface is important. Finding out how to get the most of your wing is the goal. A lot of problems have solutions though without always changing canopies.

FYI - I think going hand in hand with flying a high performance canopy is physical health. When you say your upper body strength isn't that great I have to say trying to become a good swooper puts some abuse on your body. Your mind, and body should be as high performance as your canopy. Just my $.02

[BlindBrick 0]

Quote

You may have more luck with your front risers if you slow the canopy down first. Go into deep brakes and hold it there while the canopy settles down,

When you say settle down, do you mean that kind of pre-stall period where the canopy gets kind kind of shaky? I've tried the flare to front riser thing before wihtout any luck, but I'd only held the flare for a few seconds.

-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[davelepka 4]

Thats the problem. You're trying to flare, like you're landing. I'm talking about slowing the canopy down.

If you pull the toggles down slowly, the canopy will gradually slow down, and remain stable. If you flare, the change in pitch is more sudden, and the canopy will need 5 or 10 secinds in deep braked flight to stabilize.

You and your canopy are a system, and than system goes out of whack when when you apply input. If you flare, you will swing forward, the canopy will pitch up etc. This flight mode cannot be sustained, as the systen is out of balance. If you wait, eventually you will swing back under the canopy, and the system will re-balance itself to the new toggle position.

None of this has anything to do will stalling your canopy. These manuvers don't require that much toggle input.

[BlindBrick 0]

Thanks for the clarification dave, I'll give that a try this weekend.

-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[dharma1976 0]

Quote

Thats the problem. You're trying to flare, like you're landing. I'm talking about slowing the canopy down.

If you pull the toggles down slowly, the canopy will gradually slow down, and remain stable. If you flare, the change in pitch is more sudden, and the canopy will need 5 or 10 secinds in deep braked flight to stabilize.

You and your canopy are a system, and than system goes out of whack when when you apply input. If you flare, you will swing forward, the canopy will pitch up etc. This flight mode cannot be sustained, as the systen is out of balance. If you wait, eventually you will swing back under the canopy, and the system will re-balance itself to the new toggle position.

None of this has anything to do will stalling your canopy. These manuvers don't require that much toggle input.

I think that beats brian germains explaination of it.

Thanks Dave

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[dharma1976 0]

Quote

Dont you think that any wingloading can have the same consequences?
Its the decison making process and attitude under that wing that makes the difference....right?
At least up to the 'upper edge' of a 'reasonable' wing loading...

Wing loading ( up to a point) isnt necessarily the problem....its what you do and the respect you give your canopy under a loading that makes the significant difference...
Correct me please if I am wrong

YEs but I was specifically responding to someone who was saying that 1.2 wasnt so bad.

But yes I agree with you whole heartedly and titaniumly.

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[BlindBrick 0]

Quote

Quote

Dont you think that any wingloading can have the same consequences?
Its the decison making process and attitude under that wing that makes the difference....right?
At least up to the 'upper edge' of a 'reasonable' wing loading...

Wing loading ( up to a point) isnt necessarily the problem....its what you do and the respect you give your canopy under a loading that makes the significant difference...
Correct me please if I am wrong

YEs but I was specifically responding to someone who was saying that 1.2 wasnt so bad.

I never said that. I am under no illusion that 1.2 is an easy loading. I have the utmost respect for my canopy at that loading. And that's not just paying lip service to the concept, that's real respect bought with pain and blood from falling into a complacency phase right after I got over my inital fear of the canopy. Luckily the damage was mostly superfical, but it was enough to remind me that this is serious shit no matter how comfortable we may feel.

-Blind
-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[jedeisurf 0]

Hi brick
you may want to try installing 2 to 1s on your front risers they will make your riser pressure much lighter.
David

[dharma1976 0]

how much do you weight senor brick?

can you come visit sussex, we have a guy we want to pair you up with for hybrids...

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[hookitt 0]

2 to 1's work well in the CReW realm but 2 to 1's and swooping really isn't a good match. I used them for about 20 jumps a long time ago and took them off. Since 4 inches of handle pulled down is only 2 inchs of riser, the tail will be deflected to easily.


Brick, don't be shy when practicing using the front risers. Crank them down and hold on. It's easier to keep them down rather than gradually pull them down. Practice this at a comfortable altitude to get the feel of it and just go for it.

Good luck.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[raymod2 1]

Quote

Finally, I'll admit that my upper body stregnth is not the best, but when I do not think that's a factor here. I pull down on my fronts and I get that 1/2 inch or so, and then I am pulling myself up the risers without the riser coming down anymore. Granted I can't hold it very long, but I am pulling myself up the riser.

Pulling the riser down or pulling your body up. They are the same thing. Just different points of reference.