Shouldn't my canopy stall?

[dtthorne 0]

I am really trying to learn how my safire 189 canopy reacts to different inputs and spent 3 jumps this weekend manuevering in 3/4 to full brakes. It is wingloaded at 1.3:1.

Pushing both toggles down as far as I can reach I can not stall the canopy. Is this typical? Is there an emergency situation in which I would want to be able to do this?

[diablopilot 2]

You should be able to reach a stalled condition holding the toggles down as far as you can for 3 to 4 seconds.

If you can't the control lines might need to be shortened a bit. make changes in increments of no greater than 2 inches at a time. If you do shorten them inspect the canopy in flight to ensure that there is still slack in the control lines while in full flight, and that the tail is not deflected durring front riser inputs.


Is this a Safire 1 or 2 BTW?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Tonto 1]

The Safire has full arm extention control range. If I put my hands down as far on my Stilleto - It would be all bowed up and spinning behind me somewhere.

If you can't get it to bowtie after a couple of seconds, the brake lines may be too long. If you're shortening them - make small changes.

Bear in mind that if you're doing front riser aproaches, that shortening the brake lines may cause interference on the tail while putting in riser input. If your landings are OK, and you're shutting the canopy down nicely, leaving it where it is will do you no harm.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[dragon2 0]

Why would you want to be able to stall your canopy anyway, never got that... If it lands ok, what's the problem? And if you do want a stall, just take a wrap on the toggles.
The Safire has very long brake lines, and I did shorten them on the safire 135 I had because with my very very short risers and short arms I was having trouble landing it. But on the long risers it came on as a demo, no problem.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[TALONSKY 0]

Brake line length is almost a personal preference. Having the brake lines set so you can stall the canopy if you hold it at full flare for a few seconds’ means you have the brake set to allow you the most braking power that the canopy can offer. Having the brakes set long allows one to have the toggle in hand and pull down on the front risers without deflecting the tail (this is used for high performance landings). In the end it is really up to how you would prefer them set. If you cannot stall the canopy it means there is some (a small percent) of braking power that the canopy has but cannot be used with the brakes set long. If you shorten the brake lines it may start deflecting the tail if you start pulling down on the front riser.
I guess I should add, it is possible to set your brakes too short. The first thing that would happen would be as previously described you would not be able to pull down on your front risers with toggles in hand without deflecting the tail. If they are set really short it could mean that the canopy would never be in full flight and you would lose some of the braking power since it would be flying with some the brakes applied all the times

Kirk

[Tonto 1]

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If you cannot stall the canopy it means there is some (a small percent) of braking power that the canopy has but cannot be used with the brakes set long

This is just like ABS on a car. It's a good idea for those who stomp the pedal and lock up - but for those who don't, they're losing braking power.

If the brakes are set 0.5% long, the pilot will only get 99.5% of the flare. If they're set 0.5% short, and the pilot stalls that canopy at 30 or 20 feet, it may kill.

If someone needs that last 0.5%, they're either a world class PST competitor - or they're jumping a canopy too small or fast for their skill set.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[TALONSKY 0]

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If you cannot stall the canopy it means there is some (a small percent) of braking power that the canopy has but cannot be used with the brakes set long

This is just like ABS on a car. It's a good idea for those who stomp the pedal and lock up - but for those who don't, they're losing braking power.

If the brakes are set 0.5% long, the pilot will only get 99.5% of the flare. If they're set 0.5% short, and the pilot stalls that canopy at 30 or 20 feet, it may kill.

If someone needs that last 0.5%, they're either a world class PST competitor - or they're jumping a canopy too small or fast for their skill set.

t

I am not a rigger but .5% of 10 feet (just a guess at line length) is only about 5/8".

[Tonto 1]

You're the one who said a small %. I was just quoting!

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[TALONSKY 0]

After thinking about it for a little while, the amount of braking power is not the line length but the amount of travel from your hands fully extended to fully down. That distance for me is 55” I would assume most canopy control range would be somewhere between 40 to 50 inchs. So your .5% would be less than a ¼”. At 2” would be 4 percent. I also would think that it is just not a percent of that length but more of a sliding scale. To truly figure it out we would need a canopy designer to chime in on this.
Kirk

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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If you cannot stall the canopy it means there is some (a small percent) of braking power that the canopy has but cannot be used with the brakes set long

If the brakes are set 0.5% long, the pilot will only get 99.5% of the flare.

Nope. Stall speed is a function of wing loading, wing shape, and angle of attack.

In steady flight conditions you've got your weight at one gravity loading the canopy, the flaps are down, and hauling on the brake lines hasn't change the angle of attack that much.

The slowest possible landing is a dynamic event. Towards the middle you sink so your feet would be below ground level and pop back up at the end. With a little brake input the canopy slows down faster than you do, you pendulum forward, and get a big angle of attack change.

With such a landing under a modern ZP canopy you're getting a full flare without having the toggles anywhere near where it takes to get a stall in the steady state situation.

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If they're set 0.5% short, and the pilot stalls that canopy at 30 or 20 feet, it may kill.

Brake lines only somewhat too long to get a stall in steady flight conditions will not preclude a stall (intentional or unintentional) under dynamic conditions - you can stall sooner when you pull the toggles down faster or increase the wing loading by pulling G's.

The steady state behavior is something to be aware of but not relevant in getting a good landing - I've jumped parachutes which wouldn't stall in steady flight without taking at least one wrap arround my first two fingers.

It varies radically between different canopies. My Dagger 244 takes less input under steady conditions to stall than my Samurai 105. With a big stable seven cell you might want to fly backwards that's a good thing. My Stiletto 120 was much shorter - it would stall way above waist level once the lines shrunk some.

[dtthorne 0]

Thanks for the info everyone! The canopy is an original Safire 1 manufactured in Spain. I am able to hit full brakes and fly just fine. I stayed around 2000 feet for over 30 seconds with a slight breeze. I have been absolutely thrilled with this canopy. It is fun to fly, and it is easy to land. If there is no compelling reason to change anything, I'm going to leave it just the way it is!

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[diablopilot 2]

There is a mod avaliable for the Safire 1 control line atachment points that will correct the somewhat weak flare they can experience. Ask Hookandswoop for more details. It is recomended if you haven't had it done yet.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[TALONSKY 0]

I have seen his Safire, it is one that was made in Spain(similar to the one I had). It does not have the weak flare and hard openings associtated with the Safire's made in the USA.
Kirk

[dragon2 0]

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I have seen his Safire, it is one that was made in Spain(similar to the one I had). It does not have the weak flare and hard openings associtated with the Safire's made in the USA.
Kirk

Weak flare? Hard openings? Wow that must be a really different canopy... Mine used to open in >1000 ft untill I put a bigass pilotchute on it, and the flare was awesome (at least compared to spectres ). The 135 (which is like 126 sqft) flares as good as the Pilot 124 I jumped a couple times. That Safire was made in Spain. I eventually did go back to my spectre 135, but that wasn't because of any fault in the canopy

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[TALONSKY 0]

Yes, and I will bet you had one made in Spain too. If you do a search in these forums you will find that alot of Safire 1's had hard openings and weak flares. Most of those problem one's were built in the USA. My Safire had great openings and tons of flare, but I know mine was built in Spain
Kirk

[diablopilot 2]

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Most of those problem one's were built in the USA.

Not really. It was an over all design flaw.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[TALONSKY 0]

Well in talking to the factory when it came time to reline my Safire 169. I asked them for the same revision of line set because mine flew great. They asked me to check where it was made, and then said most of the problem ones came for the USA and that they never had any complaints on the ones made in Spain. Not sure if it may have been a tolerance issue or what all I know is what the factory told me, and the fact that my Safire flew great (no hard openings and tons of flare.).
Kirk

[diablopilot 2]

When you say "factory" do you remember who you spoke to?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[TALONSKY 0]

No, I just called their service center and talked to the rigger that does the factory relines and he was the one that made the comment. It also seems to me that the canopy is not genrally flawed when some do none of the things that others say theirs do. I also remember a comment form skycat that concurred with what I have heard about it mainly being the USA built ones (Oh and the reason she would know is her friend (Derik) does the modes to them)
Kirk

[spoons 0]

I had major problems with my Safire 149 [US made too by the way] when i got it (second hand with about 50 jumps on it - was still slimey) from the states. It opened incredibly hard every time, despite whatever i (or other people) did to try to slow it down.

After some thought i decided to check the line set on it - thanks to dz.com it proved very easy to get the original lineset. Turns out that the brakes, above the cascades, were all wrong and when i compared lines from the left and right of the canopy (to check for symmetry) they were up to 7 or 8cm difference in length Interestingly enough it didn't have an in built turn or anything

So i phoned up Icarus and they checked the history of the canopy and it's never been back to them - guess this means that some rigger (probably with two left hands ) had relined the canopy and had made a terrible job of it. SO my solution was to pay for a complete reline of the canopy back to the manufacturer's specifications (with Vectran lineset this time) and now it opens so much softer, flare is absolutely fine [although a Sabre 2 135 i jumped had oodles more power!].

Anyway that's my little story of my Safire opening hard and i wanted to make clear the the flare on my Safire is fine and i've never had any problems on it
I'm happy now anyway

[RippedCord 0]

My experience:

I have a Spectre 230 that I cannot stall. I had a rigger check the line lengths -- all were within recommended tolerance.

The rigger jumped his own Spectre (size unknown) and reported back to me that he was unable to stall it.

AMDG

[Winznut 0]

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My experience:

I have a Spectre 230 that I cannot stall. I had a rigger check the line lengths -- all were within recommended tolerance.

The rigger jumped his own Spectre (size unknown) and reported back to me that he was unable to stall it.

Nubi question:

Why do you want a canopy to stall?
Has it something to do with saftey?