Help choosing my second canopy

[plastic 0]

More dead swoopers than dead crw jumpers, its your life and you have the right to choose how to end it.

On a lighter note as with all "Risk sports" if you learn them properly and use the right equipment and progress at a pace that you are comfortable with you can reduce the risks to almost zero.

Just remember when we do crw we have loads of altitude to recover if we make mistakes, when you are swooping if you make a mistake you have no altitude to recover.

CRW is not dangerous but some people that have done crw are. If you decide to do crw jump with someone who knows what they are doing and you will have some real good fun, that is the best summary that i can come up with.

[DJL 232]

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There are also some Prodigy's floating around still (re: crew canopies).

Yeah, plenty of people trying to get rid of their prodigies.

The PD Lightning is the most common CRW canopy and there are some teams flying the CRW Triathlon. Both are dedicated CRW canopies. Anyone who wants to do some casual CRW should think about a Triathlon, and if you're going to get a Tri you may as well get a Tri-Hybrid .

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[TVPB 0]

Hi Vibeke

IMHO - everything helps everything. Being a proficient Rock Climber (RC)or Successful investor (SI) etc CAN help with your skydiving / parachuting (SP). I am talking transferable skills here. Some of the things the above 3 have in common:
- preparation / planning
- risk management
- auditing / condition monitoring
- equipment / technology knowledge
- systems knowledge
- rules & regulations
- etc.

Lets pick risk management. Having the ability to determine what all the potential problems are in any aspect of life will minmise the likelihood of failure. Hence, you will climb the appropriate route, choose profitable shares, not get injured whilst performing various landing techniques!!!

Ditto for flying parachutes. Flying one DOES help with flying another. AS LONG AS YOU APPRECIATE THE DIFFERENCES AND SIMILARITIES AND ascertain what all the potential problems are.

No offense, but your post shows a little ignorance and closed mindedness. Why is CRW helpful for swooping?
- for starters - you learn to fly a canopy = AIRTIME -> airtime is good time & it's educational.
- you are more likely to use / learn all toggle and riser inputs whilst learning CRW. These are very useful for swooping too.
- both disciplines involve flying relative to something else. The differences are: in swoop you are flying relative to a still object that is extremely unforgiving if you hit it. In CRW, you are flying relative to moving objects that tend to be marginally safer. If you can target a moving object well, the still ones are easier to fly relative to.
- CRW increases your awareness of canopy traffic - traffic awareness is an excellent & extremely important survivial skill in any skydiving discipline - especially if you are fighting for some space on the laneway in the pond!!!!!!!
- you can indulge in team swooping. This involves flying relative to other canopies. i.e. canopy relative work (play :) ) i.e. CRW!!!!!
- it's all air time. THIS IS GOOD. Don't fight it. Don't be scared. It's O'K. The parachute is your friend!!!!!! ;)

CRW is only "extreme" for ignorant people. You need to take more care than for standard skydiving but the risks can be managed to a level equal to standard slydiving. i.e. learn CRW off people who are experienced and don't be a dickhead when you do it!!!!

I started doing CRW at 80 jumps. I wish I started earlier. If everyone learned CRW early in their jump careers, there would be less canopy related accidents in the sport.

CRW has little to do with your canopy control skills??? Of course it has little to do with YOUR canopy skills. Because you choose not to do it. This post has got to be a baiting attempt!!!!


p.s. lets take transferable a little further. How many successful individuals / businesses took an idea / product / technique / technology / etc that is used in one application, and used it successfully in another??? MANY. Without this open mindedness, an individual LIMITS him (her) self.

Stay Safe
Have Fun
Good Luck

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[TVPB 0]

Hi Cookie

Good Post.
French Rubis & Diamant - to be sure.
Fury's are outdated. The older canopies tend to shutdown easier than the modern canopies. Modern CRW canopies tend to bounce off formations instead of deflating.

The CRW specific Triathlon is the most successful CRW canopy at competition level at the moment (1st & 2nd in Rotations, 1st in 8 way, 3rd in Sequential, at this years world meet). The Rubis (2nd sequential, 3rd Rotations, 2nd 8 way) is favoured by the patriotic French teams. PD have a new CRW canopy that has not been released to the public (1st in sequential, 3rd in 8 way). The PD Lightning is still popular. It is great for beginner / inter teams and formation stuff but is a little outdated for top end / advanced competition CRW (just my opinion).

The French CRW teams used the Rubis in all disciplines at this years world meet.

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[vibeke 0]

Transferable skills?!
Yes, you are right common sense, awareness, reactions and such can be transferred and used in every aspect of ones life.
However I feel, that this thread have taken a turn something it was not to begin with. I would like clarify some things, and I still need some questions answered.
The turn of the debate started with a guy suggesting me to keep my current canopy (Sabre135) and really get to know it. Among the suggestions on what to do with it was "Do CReW".

I still CAN NOT see how doing CReW on a Sabre135 can be all that good. I do appreciate having an object (other canopy) to practice my canopy controls relative to. I just dont make contact! Like I said earlier, I don't want anyone kicking their feet in my lines and fabric. My Sabre is not designed for that, and a wrap is a considerable risc!

I would still like to know - I hope you dont find this provocative, but I really would like a simple answer - does CReW involve considerable higher risc, than flying "normally" getting a wrap, and having to perform emergency procedure? I believe so. Can anyone direct me to any statistics?

And dont give me that "there are equally many incidents amongst swoopers" - because I wouldn't dream of flying some extreme canopy either. (As you can se, this thread started with me having trouble desiding if I should buy a Spectre or a Sabre2).

I´m not "against" CF on a CF canopy under the guidance of a skilled instructor. I have actually discussed the options with a danish instructor Mette Humle prior to this discussion.
That is why I asked how doing CReW would benefit my canopy-piloting skills in general. I was not being sarcastic. I´m simply asking questions - my main concern of CReW remains safety!

[TVPB 0]

No worries Vibeke & Sorry if I come across as blunt.

Canopy Relative Work (CRW) does not necessarily have to involve contact. If you are flying next to someone you are still flying relative to them. Hence you are still doing CRW.

Is a Sabre a good choice for doing contact CRW. Of course not. As with everything else in life, you should use the correct equipment for the job you are doing. However, you can do CRW safely with a Sabre 135. But you have to take MANY precautiones (i.e. dock in the same direction, stack dock only - don't plane, wear protective clothing, do it with an instructor who has a track record of competance, etc).

Wraps??? I have seen more wraps resulting in cutaways from relative work jumpers than from CRW jumpers. Obviously I have seen more canopy deformations in CRW but CRW jumpers are more capable of dealing with this. I have done about 600 CRW jumps. In those jumps the cutaways have been due to (you've got to look at root cause not just numbers):
- one person not being able to perform wing docks early in his 8 way career
- a new rotations jumper on a VERY STEEP learning curve 2 weeks before a world meet - he was trying to find where the limits where (we made him do this to maximise the performance of the team).
- two of us docking at 90 degrees to each other.

Hence, with the wrong people, CRW can be riskier. WIth the right people, it is no more dangerous than most other disciplines.

Remember - don't just look at the numbers r.e. incidents. Look at the root cause. You will often find a solution to the problem.

Good luck either way.

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[JohanW 0]

Hi Vibeke, it's 'that guy' again here, and let me clarify a little. No, of course I didn't mean for you to start doing full-contact CReW on your Sabre.

You acquire the skills, the awareness, the reactions, the confidence, on a specific CReW-canopy; thereafter you might fly canopy RELATIVE with the Sabre, not necessarily canopy CONTACT. Bumping endcells, or giving center cell docks without having grips taken, should however not be too big of a problem with somebody who also knows what he's doing. Recreative CReW is good fun, reasonably safe, can be done on the bottom end of RW jumps, and will teach you a lot.

Of course flying close to other canopies opens you up to certain risks. Discuss these with a CReW coach and manage them. Of course not coming anywhere near other canopies is safer than intentionally bumping into them. But it's not some idiotic risk.

You might even buy the Spectre, do the CReW thing and swoop

Johan.
I am. I think.

[C00KIE 0]

This Web Site lists 57 fatalities this year (2004); including 7 canopy collisions and 20 landings. Arguably better 'Canopy Control' could have prevented most of these deaths. You've got to ask yourself is the risk from say, 10 to 15 CRW training jumps worth taking to avoid dying under a badly controlled canopy on landing or during flight. You can choose not to do CRW but unfortunately we all have to land, and we usually have to do so with other people in the sky so it's best to be prepared.

There was one CRW death in 2004 and that was a member of the French team during training. All CRW fatalities that I've heard of in 5 years has been at competition level which is quite a different thing.

Incidentally in Holland it is compulsory to do a minimum of 5 CRW jumps (I may have the exact number wrong) under coaching in order to qualify for a C license.

Anyway, this post isn't about avoiding death so much as it is about STAYING ALIVE and getting back to your dilemma about canopy progression I have an idea...

I started with about 10 CRW coaching jumps. Once I'd got my qualification in CRW however (CF1) I almost immediately switched to camera. I videoed CRW for about 200 jumps over two years ON A SABRE 135. I learnt so much from flying camera that last year, when I started doing CRW again I found I could make more controlled and targeted dockings than other CRW jumpers with many more jumps. I can really recommend this route. It is one way that you can carry on jumping your current canopy while trying to find its full range.

There are a few rules about vidoeing canopy formation (and any canopy) which includes never fly in front of the canopy formation (or any canopy), keep behind the formation at all times, never lose sight of all canopies throughout the whole jump and do not make contact. If you get an opportunity to film a CF team they must brief you before the jump on this and more.

Filming CF on a Sabre 135 is a little tricky because they over-perform compared to CF canopies. The first thing you will learn is how to slow its flight right down so you do not over-take the formation. This sounds easier than it actually is. You will pick a spot where you want to fly in relation to your formation and you will have to work every contol mechanism of your canopy to maintain that position; level, speed, etc. and this is where you start to learn the full range of performance that your canopy can give you and you will have plenty of time to experiment.

Once you know the full range of your Sabre 135 the arguement of this thread seems to be that you will have something to compare to any other canopy you get the opportunity to demo in the future??

Here's a website on CRW camera work which has been recommended:

http://www.crwphoto.com/

I hope this might be of interest!

Cookie xx

Life is a four letter word!

[dragon2 0]

You'r right about the required 5 crw jumps. It's funny to see the "students" coming in all nervous (well, some of them are, not all of them of course), they don't want to do these jumps but they "have to", then after 1 or 2 jumps they get more relaxed, and after 5 they say: Wow, I learned so much! This will never be my fav discipline and I may never do it again, but I'm glad I did these jumps!
Or something like that... Of course, some DO really want to try CRW, and take advantage of these weekends even when being nowhere near C license requirements yet, and some DO follow up, so besides the newbies weekends we also have follow-up weekends. Kees is doing good stuff here

BTW for filming CRW, I take a 7 cell anyday Although the sabre sinks quite well (my problem is usually my lower WL)...

ciel bleu,
Saskia