canopy progression question

[AggieDave 6]

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you said i am making a decision with all these decades of experience telling me not to do it. bullshit. i have decades of jump experience that specifically recommended this canopy to me. my AFF-I has 4000 jumps, my DZO has 4000 jumps, my main coach has 1400, my S&TAs have 6000 between the two, need i go on? all of them (and more) recommended the 190 to me.

Then why in the hell did you ask about it here? You're right, we don't know you, so everyone here recommends with what they've seen in their experience, which is to be conservative.

Are you sure they're recommending the canopy and not just telling you to go ahead and do it after being nagged incessively? I've seen very experienced jumpers and instructors tell extremely low time jumpers (such as yourself) "sure you could get that" after being nagged and nagged and nagged, hoping for a different answer then "no."

So go ahead, do what you want to do, since that is what you will do anyways.

Good luck and I hope you stay safe.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Jskydiver22 0]

Hey, did u take time and read the whole sentence before you decided to go off. I said odds are he will get hurt if he "freaks out" meaning jabs a toggle or does something like that to get hurt. Is it possible that you just blocked that out? Im not one that likes to tell people "o yeah your gonna die" If you followed this thread you would see that i stuck up for him most of the time trying to give advice. No, i dont only know of those who do get hurt either.

I dont think that you understand that i have been around skydiving far before i actually started. I live with people with 3000+ jumps. Ive been at dropzones at young ages. I see a lot of stuff go on and listen a lot. So now i have to ask you...When you say "Fact is, you dont know" Where do you get your facts? You dont know me so how can you possibly tell me that i dont know. I have seen people come and go with fast canopies that they shouldnt be on and do just fine. I also see people come burn in and break themselves. You cant label me as someone who knows nothing about the sport just because i have 215 jumps. I have sources.

I was trying to help him out anyways, how are you turning this around to make it sound like im telling him that hes gonna kill himself? All i meant is that he is puting himself at a greater risk, and i think most would agree with me on that.

--I don't even know enough to know that I dont know--

[justinb138 0]

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jeez what a shitstorm....okay, to clarify: i am not into swooping or any high performance landings. Tonto, i said "dont tell me im going to die, ive heard it before" to try and get my post answered and not degenerate into this flame party. you said i am making a decision with all these decades of experience telling me not to do it. bullshit. i have decades of jump experience that specifically recommended this canopy to me. my AFF-I has 4000 jumps, my DZO has 4000 jumps, my main coach has 1400, my S&TAs have 6000 between the two, need i go on? all of them (and more) recommended the 190 to me.
now having said that, i apologize to everyone. i did not mean to come across as arrogant and know it all or whatever. but think about this: i KNOW my coaches, DZO, AFF-Is, and S&TAs, and they know me. i do NOT know any of you, nor do you know me. whose opinion would YOU trust in my shoes?

I used to ride motorcycles, and used to speak with alot of people on forums regarding sportbikes. I keep seeing the same kinda thing on this site alot. I've seen many people go out an buy the fastest sportbike that they could get with hardly any riding experience, because they would "be careful" or "take it slow" (These are usually the people you see riding wheelies between lanes in highway traffic during rush hour). People would try and talk them into getting a smaller bike, a more forgiving one, to no avail. You get startled by a car cutting you off and yank the throttle on a 500cc bike, you get the sh!t scared out of you and learn not to make the same mistake again. You do the same thing on a 1000cc Race Ready bike, you don't get the chance to make the same mistake again. Seems to be the same kind of attitude involved. The way I see it (with my limited experience), if I am under 1000ft, and the shit hits the fan, I want to have the most forgiving canopy above my head as possible. I don't have anywhere near the experience to tell you what canopy is good for you, nor will I try. I just wanted to mention a quote that someone told me before. - "It's more fun to drive a slow bike fast, than to drive a fast bike slow". [/rant]

[crotalus01 0]

hey thanks for trying to help, all of you, but lets chill.
AggieDave - PM sent.
the rest of you, please chill. if its just gonna be flaming then let it die. if anyone else has useful info please fell free (other than flame bullshit).
and Tonto - well i guess you pissed me off a bit by calling me arrogant and ignorant but i see where you are coming from. i AM ignorant, with only 30 jumps what else could i be? but i am not arrogant, and i did not make the decision on my own, i asked advice from the jumpers i know and the ones i dont to get a balanced opinion. Skybytch gave me a great PM, i talked to my S&TAs about her concerns. they still recommended the 190, although i am now looking at buying a 210. will cost a lot (already have the 190). i think i will jump with my coach (last out, open high) and have him evaluate my canopy skills on the 190. anyone have a problem with that? and please, NO flames.....just honest opinions without the....fuck, nevermind. just your opinions. but no flames, if you want to flame just let the thread die.

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[skyhighkiy 0]

Hey crotalus.

I look at this thread and I see my scenario being played out all over but on a different topic, saying almost the exact same things you're saying.

I do have some advice, actually
(uh oh, I can feel the tension building
I was lucky enough, after attempting 90 riser turns to my landing (right around 30 jumps), to escape w/ nothing more than a harder than I wanted landing, to which I was just a little sore...that was my lesson...w/ a 1.09 w/l. I hope, when you have to have your lesson (since it seems inevitable at this point) that yours will be as gentle as mine, and nothing more than something to let you realize where you're at in this crazy skydiving world.

I have two tips, if you would hope to survive. The first is to try to learn enough to get to the point where you really know how little you know. Go out there and Nag the hell out of your riggers and the DZO and the pilot and experienced jumpers to get as much information about everything as you possibly can, if you can, do what I did and spend every day there, just soaking it in, listening to stories. Ask your DZO about videos you can borrow (pack like a pro) and "flying your canopy" and "fly like a pro", BUY GERMAINE'S BOOK that will Give you a serious clue as to how much you (and I) have to learn. look up info on line, troll the boards and soak it up.

the 2nd piece of advice is from your first post when you said something along the lines of "I trust my S&TA explicitly"(definition of explicitly: Having no doubts or reservations; unquestioning) ...as you acquire knowledge of the sport, I hope that changes; and when it comes to things as important as buying a canopy just off student status, I'd hope you'd reconsider that statement. I have a friend (sorry dude, gotta write it) that is friends with an extremely experienced skydiver. REally, really good. anyways, my buddy has a little under 150 jumps and, if I understood hiim right, the guy was encouraging him to jump from a Sabre2 170 (40 or so jumps) to either a stilleto 135 or a Velocity 120?...and my buddy was thinking about doing it....Thank God the mom stepped in :) Something I've grown to realize is that just about every experienced skydiver (S&TA or otherwise) has their own idea of what's safe and what's not, or what's the "right way" as most of them seem to think they were the inventors of something in the sport.
One thing you may also want to consider is that buying a canopy and loading it at 1.3 means that you won't be able to jump at quite a few dropzones for awhile (wingloading rules)

As someone that has been flamed many times over, please realize that I'm not flaming you and nothing in my post was meant as malicious.

Although I'm definately a baby in this sport, I've learned a lot in the time since my student stage, and I can relate to your anxiousness in getting a smaller canopy.
I tried to run before I could walk...and learned a lesson; that will come.
For Now, I'm just gonna become the best damn crawler there ever was.

BE THE BUDDHA!

[Tonto 1]

Hi Dan,

No flames here. We have different frames of reference. When I started jumping, it was on a round canopy. People at the time felt that one should have at least 100 jumps before progressing to a square. I pushed the limits, much to everyone's concern, and was jumping a 240 sq ft Viking Superlight at 40 jumps, loaded to about 0.73. The excitement was mind blowing. I progressed to a Cruislite 220 at about 50 jumps and did fine till about 150 jumps when overconfidence, inexperience and phenomenally poor flying resulted in me breaking my femur in 9 places on a canopy loaded to 0.8.

A year and several operations later I was back. I did a further 450 jumps on that canopy, then moved through PD 190's and 170's for a further 400 jumps. When I had 1000 dives I was jumping a Peregrine 150, (An Excalibur clone) that was yesteryear's crossbrace. At 1200 jumps I went to a Jonathan 120 and remained on that canopy, with the exception of 700+ Tandems and 700 + rotation CRW dives, till I had 3800 jumps. (1200 on the 120) At that point I moved down to a Stilleto 107 (WL 1.85) where I remained until recently getting a Safire 119 for wingsuit dives.

So I'm an old fart. My progression was limited more by canopy design than by choice, but had I been on your canopy when I smashed my femur? I'd be dead. I still dream about one day having the skill and confidence in my actions that I thought I had when I had 150 jumps prior to that injury.

I hear people with 100 or 200 jumps complaining that they're "bored" with their current canopy, with freeflying, with FS. Boredom is a state of mind.

You'll probably jump your 190 without incident and downsize and have a happy and successful skydiving career. I hope that's the case. I really do. I also hope that you heed all the warnings you get, and learn to make wise decisions in your life. Being a clone is never healthy. To trust implicitly is foolish. I hope to see you continue to question authority - and not only the authority that does not agree with your current point of view.

Heed the advice others have given you. Understand that the majority of death and injury in the sport today is under a fully functioning canopy and learn all you can as fast as you can.

Your life depends on it.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[repeter 0]

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One thing you may also want to consider is that buying a canopy and loading it at 1.3 means that you won't be able to jump at quite a few dropzones for awhile (wingloading rules)

good point about the wl rules.. i had a hard time getting them to let me fly a 1.1:1 at 150 jumps at my new home dz..

btw.. my mom owns you..

[Tonto 1]

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One thing you may also want to consider is that buying a canopy and loading it at 1.3 means that you won't be able to jump at quite a few dropzones for awhile (wingloading rules)

Good point. In South Africa your wing loading may not exceed 1.0 until you have a B licence and 100 jumps. There are no exceptions to this rule.

PASA MOP's are available at www.para.co.za

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[crotalus01 0]

okay, since this is such a divisive topic, lets hear your opinions: what wingload should a jumper be at with 30 jumps? not me specifically, just a generic jumper with 30. conventional wisdom seems to be 1:1, but what is it at your dz?

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[repeter 0]

i'd say 1:1.. but there are always the few people who should stay under 1:1 for a while.. making someone wait till 100 jumps for 1:1 i think is a little overkill.. but what do i know? not to much..

[Tonto 1]

Sea level, moderate tempreture, breezy DZ, 1.1, maybe even 1.15.

High elevation, hot, 1.0.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[crotalus01 0]

just wanted to say thanks to all who offered advice. no problems so far with the sabre other than a spanking opening - flares beautifully, first time i have jumped a canopy i could feel the flare.

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...