Just a story of my accomplishments in landing :)

[skyhighkiy 0]

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I just have this to say, learning high performance landings at the stage you are at, is like learning to do differential calculus without learning basic algebra.

Hahaha,it's interesting that you used this specific example because in highschool I took algebra 1 and 2 and then went on the advanced track and got straight in to a calculus course, nice try though

BE THE BUDDHA!

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Jakee I'm not making this post to slam you. But (unless I'm mistaken about canopy flight versus a normal wing ... and if a more experienced and reputable canopy pilot wants to step in, in case I say the wrong things ... Chuck ... Jim ... Ian ... Tim where are you?) I think we need to clear up a few things here.

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the aim at the end of ANY landing is to put your feet on the ground with the canopy flying at the minimum speed possible while still supporting all your weight.

No argument here ... landing with your feet close to the ground with minimal horizontal and vertical speed is the ultimate goal and the sign of a good canopy pilot (no matter what the WX conditions are).

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If your canopy is stalling you have lost pretty much all of that lift and it is NOT supporting your weight.

I believe I have already beaten "what causes a wing to stall" with a dead horse. But lets look at things a different way. You are in the middle of your surf landing (some people call it a swoop). You have arrested all your vertical decent. What happens next? Don't even think about the ground winds as it doesn't matter when we're talking about the vertical component (you could be jumping into a strong 20 mph head wind or hauling ass 20 mph downwind ... hope you know how to tuck and roll), your canopy only cares about it's air speed in order to stay aloft. At some point in time (since we are not using any thrust ... what are the four components of flight? Thrust, Lift, Drag and Gravity), you will lose enough air speed and the air flow across the top of your wing will be disrupted and your canopy will stall and in most cases (assuming you're not hauling ass downwind) you will touch down for a very nice landing and the spectators applaud you for a job well done. You have just stalled your canopy and it (the canopy) wasn't all deformed as you thought it needed to be. It bleed off enough airspeed so as to disrupt the smooth flow of air across the top of the wing.

Now let's change things. You're surfing again and "X" number of feet (but still a reasonable distance away from you), a dog runs in front of your intended touch down zone. What do you do? Some people will say do a flared turn. And if you have enough air speed, this is an option. But if you're at at the end of your swoop, guess what? The air above your wing is likely to get disrupted and you're much more likely to stall your canopy before you'd like it to stall and you will touch down faster than you wanted to and it also may be a harder touch down than it should have been (flare turns are cool, but make sure they are not done at the end of your swoop). A better option might be to shut things down early. But this is not an easy thing to do for someone who doesn't know their canopy (and I know the theory better than I could actually demostrate it). But what you need to do is to slowly (to not generate too much lift and pop up into the air) but authoritatively apply more toggle input, change the form of your wing and induce a stall before it was likely going to stall all by itself. If done well, your landing may be a tad harder and faster than you'd like it to be, but guess what? You're going to stop in front of that dog and the crowd is still going to cheer you again (and Rover will be licking your ankles obliviuos to his almost demise because all he wants to do in life is chase that ball for one hour straight ... I've seen it).

Now as a Colorado jumper, I often talk about our fast landings and our abrupt stall conditions. Now why is this? Well the obvious answer is that our air is thinner, there are less molecules and we can't generate enough lift to maintain the same swoop as we could at sea level (and the need to learn how to complete your flare to maximize your vertical descent is paramount when jumping in high altitude conditions with a small canopy). But why is this? Well with less air, our canopies cut through the skies faster but they also stall at faster airspeeds all because the flow of air across the wing's surface is not enough to maintain the wing's lift. Airplane pilots (hopefully) know to check the Pilot's Operating Handbook for the aircraft we fly as we know the manufacturers have supplied us with some valuable information as to what will happen to our flight characteristics at various altitudes, at various wing loadings and at various temperatues. But unfortunately the same information is not provided to skydiving community. But the exact same environmental conditions exists no matter what wing we are flying. So we are left to learn the flight characteristics of the wings we fly on our own usually requiring hundreds and hundreds of jumps on each canopy (preferrable up high before we bring them down low to the ground). Of course the same rules don't apply to 100 jump wonders as they already know it all (this last comment was not directed at Jakee, but instead to all of the 100 jump wonders that we know and love and know that some of us were also 100 jump wonders at some point in time in our short and yes dangerous skydiving careers).

Finally ... what makes rear riser swoops so dangerous for people ... who first don't understand aerodynamics ... but also may not have good subtle canopy control? Rear riser swoops are dangerous because the likelyhood that we'll induce a stall is much higher.

1) I hate to beat a dead horse, but why does a wing stall? Because the flow of air above the wing gets disrupted.

2) Every wing has a minimal stalling airspeed. All wings can not fly below a certain minimal airspeed ... no matter what.

3) Abrupt attitude changes used in conjuction to the relative wind can cause enough disruption of the flow of air across the wing, and it will stall.

So back to rear riser swoops. At some point in time, without changing the wing's form (we don't change the wing's forms when we pull down on the rear risers, but we do change the wings form when we apply toggles much in the same was the form of the wing is changed when the flaps on an airplane are extended), the wing on a rear riser landing will stall before the wing with toggle input will stall. But what makes things dangerous for Mr Hot-shot-I-want-to-impress-the-girls swooper is that if the canopy pilot is too abrupt with their rear riser input, they can disrupt the flow of air across the top of the canopy, stalling the wing and guess what? We've now compounded two stall inducing scenarios into one and we're calling 911 instead of heading off to bed with the girl(s).

If what I have said is wrong (corrected by a reputable canopy pilot), please correct me (I'm a little drunk at the moment and it took a while to write this message), and I still consider myself a student of flight. But what I have said so far (with the exception of rear riser landings) is part of the basics of aerodynamics and it shoud be applied to fixed wings as well as canopies. I didn't make this shit up. It's aerodynamics 101 or should I say "Aerodynamics for Dummies".

I may not be the sharpest crayon in the box, but I'm not dull.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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nice try though

Dude you just brushed off a very talented and experienced skydiver with that response. We're trying to help you. You don't really know how small of a community we are? One day you will meet some of us, and having the wrong attitude now isn't going to help you later. You can choose to ignore us, that's your call. But it's your ass, not ours.

Swooping rocks. But I hope I don't crater.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[lifewithoutanet 0]

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Hahaha,it's interesting that you used this specific example because in highschool I took algebra 1 and 2 and then went on the advanced track and got straight in to a calculus course, nice try though

Careful, you might end up w/ a crash course in statistics. You got a few people who are trying to help you avoid it. My advice--and I think I'm qualified to give this much--listen to them. They're not trying to prevent you from getting good, quite the opposite.
-C.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Hey Collin what's up bud? Got your video to show our newest swooper? By the way ... you have shown very good judgement with your experiences. And as long as you remember how close you came to becoming "one of them", you won't "become one of them". And if you (or I) become one of them, well, we'll still love you, just as long as you are still one of us (the living).

Good job bud ... I'm impressed and I'd jump with you any day ... assuming of course you'd jump with me.

Swooping rocks!!! I just hope I don't crater.

By the way, I'll be in Perris Valley this coming weekend working with Jim. I'd love to have a brew with you at the end of the day if you're around (I'll buy).

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[lifewithoutanet 0]

What's up, Steve? Yeah...I got the video of my 'lesson'. I need to crunch it down to a more appropriate filesize, but then I'll post it to skydivingmovies.com and update this thread. Don't have what I need on this comp, so gimme a day.

Perris...this weekend...yeah, I'll be there. We'll get a jump or two when you're not training w/ Jim. I'll buy the second round.
Cya.
-C.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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anyone have any stories of bad landings they've done themselves?

I got one ... but it's not that gory. About 7-8 weeks ago (while the testosterone was flowing freely) I decided to downwind it at our DZ through our swoop course (7-9 mph downwind in the hot thin air of CO) with NO FEAR. I actually did a decent job of it and didn't crater. I ran it out and got cheers from the spectators. The problem was that ... while I did run it out ... I got hurt. I think I suffered some sort of stress fracture (I don't know ... if I'm not really hurt or sick ... I avoid doctors ... I know my bad).

Anyway the downwind aspect to this landing wasn't my mistake. The NO FEAR aspect was a huge mistake and I got lucky in that I only missed 4 weekends of jumping. And if you can believe it, I went BASE jumping before I returned to skydiving because my BASE canopy is more than twice the size of my skydiving canopy.

Please remember that even the most experienced swooper (not me) is capable of messing themselves up and a 100 jump wonder is a million times more likely to get messed up than the experienced guy.

Swooping rocks!!! I hope I don't crater. Have fun, be safe, don't be an incidents report. We're not trying to keep you from becoming good. We're trying to [knock knock] remind you that you are a crater incident waiting to happen if you're not smart.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[jakee 1,271]

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_12/attack_story.html

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This relationship will change if the AOA gets too high
(fig. 1). The air flowing over the wing will separate from the upper surface, resulting in a loss of lift, or a stall. It should be noted that this stall condition could occur at a wide range of speeds (depending on the airplane weight or load factor, or g loading) and at any attitude (depending on the flight path angle). What is important is the AOA. Therefore, it is imperative to know when the wing is approaching the stall AOA and to take steps to avoid it.

http://www.geocities.com/damado26/aero1_4.htm

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Stalls – a condition of flight where an increase in AOA has resulted in a decrease in Cl

Regardless to flight speed and air conditions, the wing will always stall beyond the same AOA
The only cause of a stall is excessive AOA
The only action necessary for stall recovery is to decrease the AOA below ClmaxAOA

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1) I hate to beat a dead horse, but why does a wing stall? Because the flow of air above the wing gets disrupted.

Seperation of the airflow over the wing IS a stall, to find out what causes that seperation you have to look at AOA.

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2) Every wing has a minimal stalling airspeed. All wings can not fly below a certain minimal airspeed ... no matter what.

In practical terms thats right. However put a wing section in a wind tunnel and you can crank the airflow right down to zero without stalling the wing. So in the real world why do wings stall at low airspeeds? Because the loss of speed gives a loss of lift from the wing, which causes our canopies to either sink through the air, (or us to add toggle to compensate) this causes AOA to increase which at a certain point causes a stall.

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3) Abrupt attitude changes used in conjuction to the relative wind can cause enough disruption of the flow of air across the wing, and it will stall.

Absolutely correct. At high speeds abrupt control inputs are usually the only way to increase AOA enough to cause a stall.

I wasn't going to bring this up again but then comments about aero for dummies just get me in a fighting mood.

As for practical terms,

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(you could be jumping into a strong 20 mph head wind or hauling ass 20 mph downwind ... hope you know how to tuck and roll), your canopy only cares about it's air speed in order to stay aloft....... you will lose enough air speed and the air flow across the top of your wing will be disrupted and your canopy will stall and in most cases (assuming you're not hauling ass downwind) you will touch down for a very nice landing

How much toggle do you need to use to flare to a standstill (ground wise) in 20mph winds. I don't know about your canopy but on mine its not even half. You think thats a stall when I've still got my canopy over my head in half brakes with 20mph of airspeed? Granted thats just one example but it should make you think.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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comments about aero for dummies just get me in a fighting mood

Are we fighting or are we in agreement? Unless I'm mistaken (I'm ultra tired and need sleep) everything you've posted here backs up what I have said and again unless I'm mistaken, I agreed that the AOA can influence inducing a stall (how can I argue that?). But the AOA is NOT the cause of a stall. A stall is the result of the disruption of the flow of air over the wing's surface regardless of the air speed or the AOA. Why not the AOA? Look at a fighter jet and how it's thrust can propel it straight up into the sky and over come the other negative components of flight - drag and gravity.

I don't think we're disagreeing here ... or are we? ... maybe we're just talking different apples and oranges ... maybe ... I don't know?

That's it, I'm done ... my pillow beckons me ... flame away ... I'll be here in the morning ... or was that in only a few short hours from now.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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the wing will always stall beyond the same AOA

Okay I said bedtime, but I caught this.

There is a huge difference between beyond, and the point in which a wing will stall. There is no argument that a wing will not generate lift beyond it's dynamic lift limit. It's like saying I'm in a stall situation when my airspeed is less than Vso. Well dah??? (sarcasism not directed at Jakee), what is the purpose of Vso if we don't pay attention to it. If we fly at less than Vso, our wings will NOT be able to generate lift no matter how much we try and wish for them to do so.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[skyhighkiy 0]

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I need to shut down my canopy by adding more toggle input (not too much to pop me up in the air), changing the shape of my wing and inducing a stall.

in this instance, why would you just initiate a flat turn, providing you have enough momentum to do so?


The only thing better than sitting down, reading brian germaine's book and drinking some ice-tea, is knowing that you're at your place of employment, out of anything to do, sitting in the break room, and getting paid to do so

I want you all to know that this book is opening my eyes a lot. again, the information being presented to me is what's shaping me, rather than being told I"m going to die over and over.

this new information is making me re-think things. (not slowing my intensity towards learning and mprovement, just the plan in which I attack the obstacles of ignorance) In all honesty, this book may have extended my life-span

BE THE BUDDHA!

[skyhighkiy 0]

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nice try though

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Dude you just brushed off a very talented and experienced skydiver with that response. We're trying to help you. You don't really know how small of a community we are? One day you will meet some of us, and having the wrong attitude now isn't going to help you later. You can choose to ignore us, that's your call. But it's your ass, not ours.

no no no, you took that the wrong way.

I understood his advice and took it to heart, I was saying "nice try" in the attempt at comparing something that seemed out of the norm, when it was nearly my norm :)

don't think me a non-listening ass just yet, I heard it, and listened to it.

BE THE BUDDHA!

[jakee 1,271]

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I don't think we're disagreeing here ... or are we?

I think we may be very close to agreeing, it could just be the internet language barrier getting in the way. This is something we definitely agree on

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A stall is the result of the disruption of the flow of air over the wing's surface

Great. What I'm saying is that the airflow seperation in a stall situation is caused by an AOA greater than the critical AOA for that wing. Every time.
Just to make sure we're on the same page here AOA has nothing to do with the horizon Your fighter jet can be standing on its tail pipes blasting it's way straight up and the AOA will be next to nothing. Why? Because the relative wind is now coming from straight up.

On the flip side with insufficient airspeed you can be flying wings level nose pointed at the horizon and still be in a stall. Why? Because with less airspeed you lose lift and the AC begins to sink, the nose is still level but the AOA has increased beyond critical because the airflow is now coming from beneath the wing.

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It's like saying I'm in a stall situation when my airspeed is less than Vso.

I'm probably going to argue a bridge too far here but what the heck.

You can be flying in an aircraft with the airspeed less than Vso and not be stalled. You can't do it for very long and the chances are that in a few seconds time you will be stalled but you can do it. Granted you'll be in the incipient stall but you won't actually be stalled. What you cannot do is fly beyond critical AOA and not be stalled.

Are we agreed? Either way that might be enough thread hijacking for now It was actually your comments about stalling the canopy on good landings that I wanted to talk about in the first place. D'oh!

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[ianmdrennan 2]

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I was saying "nice try" in the attempt at comparing something that seemed out of the norm, when it was nearly my norm

I'm going to sound like Ron here, but you are not "special", you are not above the "norm".

Learning the basics lays a solid foundation for moving forward more quickly. If you have a crummy foundation you'll only end up paying for it later. Best case you have to go and spend 2x the amount of jumps "unlearning" bad habits you've picked up.

The slower you go in the beginning and focus on basic flight, the faster you'll be able to progress later. The inverse is also true, whereas the faster you go now, the slower you'll go later.

Adding additional speed right now is going the latter route. Focusing the techniques you're learning about accuracy and canopy flight without the additional speed is the former. Either way it's your choice, it all depends on how good a pilot you really want to be.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[lauras 0]

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I'm going to sound like Ron here,

Please report to the loft at Zhills immediately for your beating. We can only deal with one Ron at a time. Bad! Bad man!

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I have no issues with what you said and am pretty much in agreement. I will step away from our/my thread hiijacking efforts now.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[ianmdrennan 2]

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I'm going to sound like Ron here,

Please report to the loft at Zhills immediately for your beating. We can only deal with one Ron at a time. Bad! Bad man!

I hang my head in shame......

I'll take the beating though

Please call Paul Rossouw a dutchman for me and tell him I'll see him in Deland next week
Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[skyhighkiy 0]

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I'm going to sound like Ron here, but you are not "special", you are not above the "norm

Dear sweet Jesus, ok man, you jumped in this waaaay too late so I'm not gonna go through that whole thing again, but anyway

Dude, just...try to read what I wrote and understand it, "MY NORM" speaking of the situation w/ calculus and algebra, not w/ skydiving

stupid internet language barriers always getting in the way of a perfectly good conversation
hmmm...92, I'm surprised this thread hasn't been locked down yet.

HEADIN OUT TO THE DZ TODAY!!! OOOOOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2nd attempt at the horny gorilla going down tonight
1st attempt failed due to the last person out (left linked in a 3-way, last person (4th) was diving) leaving too late and not catching us til 45

WOOOOO

BE THE BUDDHA!

[kelel01 1]

Listen, if you want to get nitpicky about this goddamn algebra/calculus analogy . . .

He said skip basic Algebra and go straight to Calculus, which you clearly did not do, as you took Algebra 1 and 2.

That's all I can contribute to this thread, being a low-time, non-swooper type. But shut up and listen to them and quit arguing.

Kelly

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Dear sweet Jesus, ok man, you jumped in this waaaay too late so I'm not gonna go through that whole thing again, but anyway

Actually I read the whole thread, your attitude still comes across the that way.

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stupid internet language barriers always getting in the way of a perfectly good conversation

I agree.

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Dude, just...try to read what I wrote and understand it

Likewise, if all you took away from my post was the "Ron part" then you're doing yourself a disservice.

As I said before, the choices are yours. I hope you make the ones that make you the best pilot you can be, but if you don't, I don't mind having less competition at the swoop meets - they're tough enough already
Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[BETO74 0]

(I usually like to warm up w/ 2 or 3 landings after taking monday and tuesday off from jumping)
***

This sounds like a math problem: Let's see 50 jumps 2 days off this week. likes to warm up 2 or 3 jumps let's say you do 3 jumps a day for 5 days a week that's 15 jumps times 4 weeks 60 jumps, I'm gonna say you did not complete AFF in a month so I think you will probably don't make more than 10 jumps a month, correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm not planning in following this threat, or even keep reading, there is people here with more experience than me that are telling you be carefull for a reason, if I were you I'll listen,

http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html

[skyhighkiy 0]

I completed 2 tandems, one in sept. 03, one in oct. 03.

went through the entire student course starting at about end of april, finished by end of may.

gawd I love skydiving

BE THE BUDDHA!

[skyhighkiy 0]

shhhhhhhhhh

BE THE BUDDHA!

[skyhighkiy 0]

you're alright buddy, you're alright
Hey, in like 4 or 5 years, when I learn how to swoop, providing you and I are on our way to becoming old skydivers, I'll see you there

BE THE BUDDHA!

[skyhighkiy 0]

well. this thread is getting quite large so I feel as if it's time for me to sign off of it. I'll post video in here...hopefully by the end of this weekend, providing conditions are right and all the info in Brian's book hasn't scared me away from trying it for awhile.

Thanks to the experienced jumpers for all the advice, I've learned a lot

Thanks to the wenchy comments because I have been quite entertained

SKYDIIIIIIVE!!!!!!!

BE THE BUDDHA!