The real purpose of this "Swooping and canopy control" forum

[CanuckInUSA 0]

With all of the talk lately concerning people hurting themselves under canopies they are not ready for, one must sit back and ask why do people feel the need to swoop as well as what sort of things have influenced newer jumpers to take up swooping? Why do we do it? Why do some people crater and what will happen in the months and years to come? Can we change people's mindsets or is going big (actually small when talking canopies) the only way to be noticed?

One would assume that this forum exists not only for people to ask swooping questions but also to ask general canopy control questions. But a month or so ago when I said I was turning a new page in my canopy control (ie: to learn more than just how to swoop a canopy), I was publicly slammed by a few people to stay out of the swooping forum as the only thing people wanted to talk about here was:

1) Swooping
2) Techniques to maximize their swoops.
3) The newest greatest gear.
4) Who's doing what and who's got the video etc, etc, etc.

This is all good stuff, but little talk is given to over canopy control here on this forum and is there any wonder why the newer jumpers (especially the younger male jumpers) are attracted to swooping. If that is all that is talked about here, then maybe this forum needs to be renamed to something like "This is the swooping only forum, stay away unless you want to talk about all your bad-ass swoops". And before the latest round of bashing is thrown my way, let it be known that:

1) I do swoop and (knock on wood) to date have done a decent job doing it.
2) I am not interested in becoming a PST person (likely too old).
3) I am interested in all aspects of canopy flight.
4) As a new fixed object jumper, accuracy is a huge issue for my canopy control.

So before people start slamming me or some newbie. Maybe we should be looking in the mirrors to realize why some of the newer jumpers want to emulate the bad-ass swoopers. Swooping looks cool and swooping is fun when done right. But instead of glamorizing the discipline, maybe the skydiving community needs to place better emphasis on general canopy control and less emphasis on being the bad-ass swooper.

There is no doubt that many of the hot-shots out there will totally disagree with me. So let the hot-shots flame away. Just remember that my interests in swooping are starting to diminish now that fixed object jumping has become a keen interest of mine.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[ccowden 0]

I agree with alot of your post. You have made some very good points and brought up some things that I also have seen happening, as well as been part of, on here myself. Thank you for posting some very valid points. Hopefully we can all take a step back and look at ourselves and how we come across to newer jumpers who want to learn.

That said, I do try to be a positive role model and teach safe canopy piloting by education as well as example. From time to time I am sure I fall short, but I try to do my best. I have also been told that giving advice on here is not appreciated, as only instructors at the persons dz should be doing so. Maybe some people feel this way, but I personally feel that all information that can be shared can help. It is true however that a qualified instructor form your dz who knows your abilities would be the best to consult for advice and learning techniques. It makes it a little of a grey area to give advice/teach on these forums. But it is definitely something to discuss.

Thanks again for posting your thoughts and concerns. PM me if you want to discuss things more or if I can offer any help. Swoop safe!

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Hey Chris

I do think that people like you as well as others definitely have a lot of good things that can be taught to many jumpers. So the motivation behind this thread wasn't so much are we teaching the right things. It's more along the lines of "why are we so surprised that people are hurting themselves swooping"?

Swooping is the hot and sexy thing to do at the DZ and it's no wonder why the newer and/or younger jumpers want to swoop. But maybe more time and instruction needs to be channeled towards general canopy control and not just at the DZ, but here on this internet chat forum as well. I'd be willing to bet that if you analysed the contents of this forum, you'd find little talk about general canopy control and tons of talk about swooping, gear and who's doing what. All fine and dandy, and if nothing is wrong with just talking about swooping, then people need not be surprised when some newer jumper hurts themselves trying to be like everyone else.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[ccowden 0]

Totally agree. I also agree that too many people move on to swooping as something to learn way too early and before they have a grasp on all aspects of canopy control. Safely controlling your canopy should be the first and foremost goal before moving to new things. You have a great point that more emphasis should be put on that. High performance flight and swooping should only be learned once you have a very solid foundation of canopy control in all types of situations and with all inputs of your canopy. There is no question that this takes many, many jumps and should never be rushed into to be "cool". Even with all the learning, experience under canopies is something that cannot be substituted. I truly believe that it is this lack of experience that contibutes to most of the landing incidents. Even if someone feels as though they are learning all they can and being safe, you just can't say enough for experience. It just takes time and the patience to move into things slowly. It is like someone getting there pilot's license and after only a little time flying airplanes, they climb into an F-18. They may be a terrific pilot and fly that f-18 very well, but without the experience, sooner or later they will get themselves into a situation where that very lack of experience costs them dearly. Just because they CAN fly an F-18, doesn't necessarily mean they SHOULD.

WE all need to watch out for each other and be safe and smart about what WE are doing. WE can't let the pressure of what is "cool" dictate what WE do. Watching someone get hurt or die on a canopy and then saying, "I knew that would happen.", is a little like letting someone drive away drunk and saying the same thing. I think most people will be receptive to concern. WE just have to be careful in how WE deliver it. If someone just plain won't listen and it is the opinion of the dz that they are being unsafe, then I believe the dz has every right to keep them from jumping until they comply. If they go to the next dz, hopefully they will have the same policies.

WE all play a roll. "We" is in uppercase because I include myself and everyone in this. I am not perfect and have been quilty of some of the things we are discussing. But I am striving to be a better person, teacher, canopy pilot, roll model and friend. I think if we show more compassion and caring, and less criticism and control, we will all be better off.

[chachi 0]

I think the forum takes on a life of the people in it. Most of the questions on here are about swooping, wl, and being a better swooper. If you want the forum to take ona different direction you will have to direct all of the people to post these things. Forums on the internet are driven by what people want to talk about. Maybe we could have a canopy control forum and a swooping one?

~Chachi

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Maybe we could have a canopy control forum and a swooping one?

I would think that this is a good idea.

I'm not against swooping (I do swoop) nor am I against people talking about swooping. I just find it ironic that when some swooping incidents do occur, all of a sudden people are wondering why it happened? Until we change people's attitudes about an ever so fun, yet ever so technical and unforgiving of mistakes discipline, the accidents will continue to happen. In case people haven't noticed, it's not just the young and inexperienced people who are getting hurt and/or killed. Experienced people are also pounding in. They just don't pound in as often as the inexperienced people.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[piisfish 135]

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I'd be willing to bet that if you analysed the contents of this forum, you'd find little talk about general canopy control

you're absolutely right. the general canopy control is more often discussed in "safety and training" forum, but this forum is called Swooping and canopy control".
Maybe to re-orientate the discussion, the name should be changed to canopy control and swooping... Might help...
In any case, more canopy control knowledge helps you with swooping... Just knowing how to hook your canopy leads you to long swoops hopefully or big holes unfortunately... Helping people to get a better knowledge of how the canopy flies might save their lives. And this, we are all on the same wavelength, cannot and MUST not only been done through the internet, but with coaches...

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[freakydiver 0]

Amen and well put.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[jose 0]

I think that unless you have more than 330 jumps, you should not even be allowed to look that the swoop forum, that way, the new people couldnt even see what we are talking about.

Just bullshittin Steve. Your post made me go back and add some disclaimers to one I just made, so your approach is working already. Thanks jerky. And what the hell is up with not callin me when you were in Vancouver?

[fjd 0]

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I think the forum takes on a life of the people in it. Most of the questions on here are about swooping, wl, and being a better swooper. If you want the forum to take ona different direction you will have to direct all of the people to post these things. Forums on the internet are driven by what people want to talk about. Maybe we could have a canopy control forum and a swooping one?

~Chachi

that is a GREAT idea!

lumping the swooping and canopy control togerther, although the two are intimately inter-related, was not practical in terms of target audience/posters.

head honcho, if you are listening, why don't we leave this forum as is and title it just 'swooping,' and create another with the title 'canopy control.'

the difference being: the former will have a target audience of high-time jumpers, who want to either learn about or discuss the swooping as a discipline. and the latter will be for either low-time jumpers who are interested in learning canopy survival skills, or high-time jumpers who want to discuss canopy control in general (not necessarily high performance skills) and thereby improve upon their existing skills.

===============

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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And what the hell is up with not callin me when you were in Vancouver?

I had some mandatory Relative Work to deal with and didn't even get close the the DZ (of course it was also raining part of that weekend as well).

And yes I do think that there should be a seperate "Canopy Control" forum so that "Swooping" and canopy control are not confused and people looking for canopy control need not worry about sifting through the swooping posts.

I still think swooping rocks!!! But it's very unforgiving of errors.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[chachi 0]

no need to thank me for the great idea, throwing money will do. i think it makes sense actually....

~chachi

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Sorry for my late reply, but I have been on the road for two weeks training for and then competing in the Wildwood PST meet. Anyway, I don't feel there would be any "value added" in splitting the two forums. Yes, anyone if free to post their general canopy control questions in this forum. Actually, I would like to see more of it as there is a pretty big disparity in the level of canopy control education taught at most basic training courses, whether AFF,SL, or IAD based. Are there books available that cover that stuff? Sure, several people on these very forums offer them, but young jumpers should not feel that they are being silly when posting here right along side the "swoop" threads.

Chuck