dual front risers or just one

[flyingarab 0]

Hey guys,

I have been working on my swoops and although I get great distance and speed, people who are really into swooping have been telling me that dual front rizers with a "whip turn" is going to still be slower than a single front riser carve. Can you tell me if this is the case and will "whip turns" result in poor performance when pond swooping? I would like to compete in swoop contests next year and would rather change a bad habbit now. Thanks..blue skies

Sincerely,

FlyingArab
www.flyingarab.com

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Can you tell me if this is the case and will "whip turns" result in poor performance when pond swooping?

To build speed you have to change your flight attitude, right? So a longer carve is more time in a turn, which takes longer but builds more speed, helps get your canopy to the powerband. Not only that, but you build momentum and speed throughout the entire turn. With a snap turn, you're changing all of your forward movement into a radical direction change and then into a dive, which presents a less then perfect approach angle. Brian Germain (whats that guy know, right?) compared it to skipping stones across a pond, the more speed you have at a shallower angle will give you a longer swoop, the steeper angle may still give you a swoop, but you're loosing a lot of the potential. And eventually you get so steep that you don't swoop, just like you take a perfect skipping pebble and throw it straight into the water.



What I've been really trying to get perfect is doing a 270 approach where its a carve through the first 90 that gets a bit steeper as I come around online with the gates, the times I get it right, its a smok'n swoop, the times I don't, I usually do a nice highspeed flyby at 20ft.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[flyingarab 0]

Ok, well then it is something I am going to have to work on. My accuracy with dual risers is right on and I was kinda happy with it but I have been told by others as well as you in this post that the carve is the way to go. I will have to work on setup altitude etc.. kinda like starting all over again with accuracy. Well, if I start now, perhaps my 2005 I will be ready! Thanks bro...

Sincerely,

FlyingArab
www.flyingarab.com

[skygod7777 0]

Quote

To build speed you have to change your flight attitude, right? So a longer carve is more time in a turn, which takes longer but builds more speed, helps get your canopy to the powerband

i'm going to agree, but only to a point. a really slow carve will build up a lot of speed, i'll give you that. but if you start the turn a bit slow, and then bring it around quicker, that is where you speed is at.

what kills your speed is an abrubt turn, if you start somewhat slow, and then speed the turn up, and get flat with the canopy, and let it dive that is where the speed is at (aka the most distance).

check out the pd guys, specificaly heath, he really almost "whips" a turn around, and he is winning with the turns he's doing.

later

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

and he is winning with the turns he's doing.

He's also not human...he's sent to us from the futuristic planet "swoopidia" along with Clint Clawson, he's evil clone...



EDIT: (fucknig browser killed half of what I had typed)

Kelly, that's what I was trying to get at, thank you for being more articulate then I was.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skygod7777 0]

Quote

He's also not human...he's sent to us from the futuristic planet "swoopidia" along with Clint Clawson, he's evil clone...

now that made me spill my drink

later

[flyingarab 0]

ok ok..so..are you saying that he does whip it in a turn and still gets speed and distance?

Sincerely,

FlyingArab
www.flyingarab.com

[AggieDave 6]

Yup, that's what he's saying.

From what I've seen watching videos, atleast. Although it seems like Clint does more of the carve then pull in type approach.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skygod7777 0]

Quote

ok ok..so..are you saying that he does whip it in a turn and still gets speed and distance?

it's not like a whip that i think your thinking of. ok, he's not grabbing a riser and yanking on it and whipping around really, it's a smooth turn, it's just faster than what a common "carve" you'll see on an everyday weekend.

go to pd's web site and check out his turns, or all of the teams turns for that matter.


what some of the competitors are doing that i've seen is a slower 90 (maybe a bit less) and then "whipping" the rest of the 270 around pretty quickly. this is what i personally do, and it get great distance and speed from it.

but something that is as equally important as the whole turn wheather you want to whip (snap turn) it around, carve (never horizontal with the canopy) or do the "hook/carve" as i call them (not a snap turn, but you get flat with the canopy) is hitting the power band, if you can't get that then you mine as well give up in a comp, because the big doggs are everytime, and until you can, you don't have chance
does that make sense, if not i'm not sure if i can be of any more help but i can still try

later

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

ok, he's not grabbing a riser and yanking on it and whipping around really,

See, I kinda consider that a "whipping" turn, but nothing like a hard core 100% "grab and hope" whip turn.

Tell you what, I'm going to keep my mouth shut now and let you handle this.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skygod7777 0]

Quote

See, I kinda consider that a "whipping" turn, but nothing like a hard core 100% "grab and hope" whip turn.

Tell you what, I'm going to keep my mouth shut now and let you handle this.

if i make it down to tx one of these days i'll show you a good whip for a turn, i'll do a phatty 720 and scare the shit out of ya, and then you'll know what whipping a turn is .

but for the most part, the general opinion of most people would say that is a whip, or a snap. but in my book it's not, but people look at things very different. when i grew up swooping we snapped the shit out of our canopies, we didn't know any better. then i learned if i don't just grab a riser and yank, i get more speed.

it's all on how you look at things. it's one of those is the glass half full or half empty..............ok maybe not really but it's kind of like that............right


btw, i'm not one to take control of any conversation, i only put my own experience/opinions out there, there are MUCH more qualified people that could answer his question, better than I that is for sure., maybe one day i can be a real skygod ok, j/k i am a skygod

later

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

if i make it down to tx one of these days i'll show you a good whip for a turn,

Hooknswoop used to jump at my DZ...trust me, I've seen a really phat whipped hook.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skygod7777 0]

Quote

Hooknswoop used to jump at my DZ...trust me, I've seen a really phat whipped hook.

yea but that dudes crazy maybe i can be like him one day just let me get ahold of that 60 he had.

later

[ramon 0]

tarek,
2 stage, starts in a carve then as he comes around really cranks the last bit.

but what you are missing is the fact that your risers should be pulling out of your hands due to the speed as you reach your powerband. That means you are at top speed and after you reach the power band you should begin your plane out.

just whipping a 180 you wont reach max speed (you can go fast..but not your best). if you do a slow carve and then really crank the last part of your turn to get the most out of it you might.

If I do slow 270 I adjust the pull on my turn based on altitude and speed, as I speed up I will try and fight the centrigul motion and pull harder on the riser the last 90 or so (depending on altitude). You should know if you are too low (and whip it earlier or too high and make it more gradual)
I only adjust the last 90 degress or so.

whipping a 180 is ok if your too low to do a full speed turn (read... not OK if you should be doing a 90 ) You are not reaching full speed in your whips due to altitude. and if you carve it from higher you will ahave more control

If you whip a 180 or complete your tun too soon and are high you can always grab double fronts to try and maintain the dive...but the idea is to not be able to grab any more riser and have max speed right before plane out time and on heading.

ramon

"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce.

[ramon 0]

If I was jumping at 3.1 loading i'd just do a 180 whip from 700' also...

"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce.

[flyingarab 0]

Ramon,

thanks bro. I am going to start puting some more time into this and try to stop the bad "two riser" approach. I think that the combination of fear of other traffic getting in the way during a carve and the fact that I do not know how high I should be in order to pull this off is going are going to be the hardest parts.

Whiping it in was so easy because all I had to do is simply go over my target area and then crank the hell out of the risers. Damn, why can't it be that easy.

I know what you are talking about in regards to the risers pulling back up so I will search for that feeling. I just hope there is a golf cart to come pick my ass up when I fly by my desired landing area by 300 feet!

Sincerely,

FlyingArab
www.flyingarab.com

[Brains 2]

Hey Tarek,

Man take advantage of the guys you have there, Ramon sounds like he is willing to help and i know of at least one other <><> pilot who could probably give you some pointers as well. I am finally starting to get the starting alti and timing down on long 180 carves. It takes a little while to nail, but it is easy to speed up or slow down to hit the right entry spot. Once you whip it, you are committed.

Quote

I just hope there is a golf cart to come pick my ass up when I fly by my desired landing area by 300 feet!

I'm sure there will be if you swoop the fairways.

Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you.

[flyingarab 0]

haaa....woohoo 18th hole here i come. Ramon and a few others have been extremely helpful and I am most appreciative about their continued support to help me become a safer and more accurate canopy flyer.

I will take the advice and work with it now in hopes of becoming the great "Swooping ARAB". Until then, I am just going to try to refrain from being called the "Digging and Bouncing ARAB" C-Ya

Sincerely,

FlyingArab
www.flyingarab.com

[StearmanR985 0]

Quote

If you whip a 180 or complete your tun too soon and are high you can always grab double fronts to try and maintain the dive...but the idea is to not be able to grab any more riser and have max speed right before plane out time and on heading.

ramon

I am still quite new but have been working with fronts since about jump 30. I only do about a 120 degree turn but have a tendency to set up a bit high.

A question: Ramon, if I am too high what do you think about purposely over turning a bit then using the other front to get back on line? Providing traffic is clear of course. Basically kind of an S turn with fronts just prior to flare point. I tried this on Saturday and my canopy seemed to pick up even more speed (for a Tri that is ) with the 'second' turn.

Jeff

Edited for spelling, DOH!

[ianmdrennan 2]

Hi Jeff,

Quote

if I am too high what do you think about purposely over turning a bit then using the other front to get back on line?

While it initially seems like a good idea, it's actually quite inefficient. Remember the less distortion of the wing the better, not to mention you're now also going against momentum by changing the wing direction. Jim Slaton had a good tip on not forcing a bad situation. You can recover some of the excessive altitude by using both fronts, but I'd advise against counter rotating, not only for loss of performance but also traffic consideration factors.

The best approach would be continuously evaluating your altitude as you did the turn and extending or shortening the turn speed to keep you in the correct altitude for that part of the turn.

Sometimes we're just too high. Better to go and try again than force a situation.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[flyingarab 0]

ok ok..one more ? If I am carving and not whipping it, how long should a carve take. Is this s 6 second thing or is it not so easy to figure? I mean, I want to know that I am getting a full carve and not wasting it away on just a longer whip turn. (does this make any sense??)

I am loading at about 1.3 to 1.4 and would like to know, do I start my 180 carve or do I start higher and do this 270 like you are all talking about?

Sincerely,

FlyingArab
www.flyingarab.com

[ramon 0]

check your email.

I'd like to see you getting full speed out of that canopy with full control before you downsize..that is the general rule.. I think you could downsize in the near future but the big Butz is probably going to want to see you performing more efficient turns consistently or he is going to give you hell.

"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce.

[flyingarab 0]

ok..then my rule was that I would not downsize until next year! From now till then I will work on my carving skills with what I have...ou know..the COBALTS. hee hee team attair..I will one day be team arab attair. peace

Sincerely,

FlyingArab
www.flyingarab.com

[StearmanR985 0]

Ian,

Interesting point. Damn, I thought I was on to something. Oh yeah, no worries about traffic I am quite aware that S turns on final are a no-no if traffic is around. Both dangerous and rude.

On the serious side. With my Tri, I don't get much out of the double fronts (could be my technique ), that is why I attempted this manuver. One thing I would like to note is that my transition from left front to right front was fairly gradual and smooth. Reading posts here and speaking with Ed (my T-AF instructor), I am aware of canopy distortion and recovery so I didn't just snap from left to right. The canopy picked up more speed and my landing was the fastest I have gone under this canopy, so far that is. So I really thought I was on to something there.

I do realize that the idea is to set up at the proper altitude so you don't have to do stuff like this. But, I still suck!! And with all the stuff I have read about low turns I am being quite cautious. Can be frustrating though when I keep setting up too high, again and again and yet again. Just looking for a way to keep or even gain speed as I continue to practice and get better.

Keep the suggestions coming please,
Jeffrey

[StearmanR985 0]

FlyingArab,

I don't want you to think I am trying to hijack your thread with my own questions.
Jeff