articulation effecting carving/harness turning

[andy2 0]

It was mentioned to me by another jumper that articulated hip rings effect the force that a swooper can harness turn. I was wondering what you guys think about that, it sounds true but I was wondering if the differences would be negligible for the comfort factor hip rings give you. What is your experience with it? Can you do harder/steeper harness turns without hip rings?

Thanks

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let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[ccowden 0]

Maybe- but I have never had a problem doing harness turns to the degree I wanted with the rings, so I don't think I would give them up to see.

[AggieDave 6]

Hip rings actually HELP you with your harness turns. They allow the rig to adjust and allows more force to be put on an individual MLW.

Chest rings, however, tend to lessen the amount of force on risers due to harness shifting. Since the harness just transfers the hip movements across the chest ring and across the chest strap.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[garywainwright 0]

I have 2 javs - one with all rings and one without. I think the one without has better harness turns. From a comfort point of view i don't feel any difference in the air but slightly more comfortable on the ground and in the plane.

http://www.garywainwright.co.uk

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[Samurai136 0]

I've found about the same thing. The no-ring harness feels like it initiates a heading change a little quicker but the turn/descent rate is about the same.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[rigging65 0]

Hip rings have become a thing that everybody has, but, IMO, all they're really good for is comfort on the ground. That not withstanding, anytime you put rings into a harness, you're giving it somewhere else to slip when you try and give an input, thus making that input less effective.

There is a pretty simple way to help reduce this problem. It's a small redesign in where the leg straps are tied in that helps you get a more "true" alignment in the MLW when under canopy. It helps you "sit" rather than "hang". This "truing" helps to keep your inputs traveling straight up the MLW to your risers, thus making it more effective.

IMO, you're still never going to get better harness control than with a Standard, non-articulated harness...unless your rig has this more "true" MLW alignment. But if it's custom fit, a Standard harness really shouldn't be uncomfortable on the ground either.

Of course, you won't look nearly as cool with a standard harness.....

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[andy2 0]

lol we all know its not how good you fly but how cool you look flying.

Are you talking about the bungee that freefliers get on their leg straps to keep the straps from slipping in freefall? Or are you talking about something else?

Thanks for the input.

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[Samurai136 0]

He's talking about something different.

Another way of saying the same thing; There are ways of assembling the legstraps to the rest of the harness such that...

This is something that is part of the design/ construction of the harness.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[hookitt 0]

Quote

Of course, you won't look nearly as cool with a standard harness.....

Good!!!.. I was worried that your priorities were a bit skewed

Ryan hit the nail on the head, true main lift web alignment. I recently went up to the busiest loft in northern california and the kind folks allowed me to lengthen my chest strap.... Thanks

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[superstu 0]

won't having chest rings also help this spreading to help use more parachute effeciently?

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[andy2 0]

[QUOTE]I recently went up to the busiest loft in northern california and the kind folks allowed me to lengthen my chest strap.... Thanks . Once I was under canopy I could open the chest strap farther and it would allow the main lift web to straighten out completely.[/QUOTE]

Would that be something like the... "usable true main lift web", as the amount your chest strap can spread open is dictated by both your parachute and your MLW.

So tim, you think hip rings help allow the main lift web to spread to its potential true length? Or is it that the rigidity that you lose with hip rings effects harness input in a negative way?

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[hookitt 0]

Quote

won't having chest rings also help this spreading to help use more parachute effeciently?

Yes... but... this may help. Try not to let the artistic stylings of the picture attached overshadow the message....
==
Harness diagram on the left, the main liftweb is deflected out ward from the chest rings on up.

The diagram on the right shows a harness that is allowed to spread out unhindered by the chest strap.

The diagram on the right shows a harness that will allow any harness input to transfer straight up the main lift web to the risers.

The diagram on the left shows a harness that will absorb much of the input by straightening out the side you lean into.

Does that help?

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[rigging65 0]

Quote

lol we all know its not how good you fly but how cool you look flying.

Are you talking about the bungee that freefliers get on their leg straps to keep the straps from slipping in freefall? Or are you talking about something else?

Thanks for the input

No, I'm talking about the actual geometry involved in the production of the harness. You want, ideally, to find yourself sitting (not hanging) in your harness, with the MLWs straight from your hip to the top of your riser.

Anyone that understands the idea of Force Vectors (little arrows drawn out to help visualize the directions force is being applied) should be able to understand this clearly. The straighter the path from your point of input (your hip) to the point of action (in this case the end of the riser) the more efficient your use of force. That is, if there are a bunch of bends and tweeks between your hip and the riser (ie- chest rings, improperly fit harness), your inputs (force) have to overcome those obstacles before it can be translated to the risers. The less obstacles, the less force needed, thus the less dramatic your inputs need to be to get the desire result.

Of course, the trade off (besides the cool factor) is also comfort on the ground. If the harness geometry is correct, you can have both...

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[superstu 0]

thanks for the pic, so how would a longer chest strap and articulation do? better or worse?

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[hookitt 0]

The chest articulation doesn't help with harness input at all.

The chest strap on my personal rig was fairly short and didn't allow the harness to spread out completely so it looked more like the diagram on the left.

To get the results I wanted, I had to take off the chest strap once I was under canopy. You can figure out on your own, that taking off the chest strap is some what of a bad Idea.

After replacing the chest strap with a longer one, the harness spreads out to look more like the diagram on the right. It really helps now that the main lift web is aligned. If you have a parachutist from a couple months ago with Heath Richards on the cover, you'll see a good example of what it looks like with the chest strap very loose under canopy.

As far as lower articulation, I don't think it makes a noticible difference in harness input. I suppose different designs could though.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto