Jump numbers and wing loading

[Ronnie 0]

Hello,
I was just wondering what others thought about this subject. While I know factors such as coaching, experience, and natural talent cannot be fed into a number equation, what are your thoughts about the progression of wing loading and jump numbers? Let's assume the canopy will not progress in peformance past a Stiletto (which is a fairly high performance canopy in of itself). Does this make sense? An example might be:
100-1:1
200-1.2:1
etc., etc.,

[AggieDave 6]

Have you seen the chart that Brian Germain published at PIA (it may be on his website by now). It basically corralated jump numbers with wingloading.

1:1 100 jumps
1.2:1 200 jumps
and so forth.

Personally I think it is a GREAT guide, although I'm being hypocritical since I've got 350 jumps and am jumping a Heatwave at 1.64:1.

Actually, I don't believe in natural talent in skydiving. I think some people pick up skills faster then others, but its not a natural talent. Furthermore, I don't believe in the statement that pilots are better canopy pilots, I think their experience may actually put them into more danger. This is due to the fact that they may push canopy performance too quickly. I saw a friend of mine who is a VERY experienced and VERY good pilot hook in back in September (he was very very lucky to have lived). In the same respect, I think canopy coaching add a LOT to the equation, but not all coaching is the same and it still doesn't make up for actual jump experience.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[kallend 1,649]

Quote

Have you seen the chart that Brian Germain published at PIA (it may be on his website by now). It basically corralated jump numbers with wingloading.

1:1 100 jumps
1.2:1 200 jumps
and so forth.

Personally I think it is a GREAT guide, although I'm being hypocritical since I've got 350 jumps and am jumping a Heatwave at 1.64:1.

Actually, I don't believe in natural talent in skydiving. I think some people pick up skills faster then others, but its not a natural talent. Furthermore, I don't believe in the statement that pilots are better canopy pilots, I think their experience may actually put them into more danger. This is due to the fact that they may push canopy performance too quickly. I saw a friend of mine who is a VERY experienced and VERY good pilot hook in back in September (he was very very lucky to have lived).

Did he do hook turns to a landing in his plane also?

The say that superior pilots use superior judgement to avoid having to use superior skills.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[AggieDave 6]

He has done some CRAZY stunts in some acrobatic planes, though. He did a high speed fly by, inverted, lower then most pilots do normal fly-bys, once.

He has made some bad judgement calls in the past, but he is one of the best pilots I've ever met, though. He's slowly healing from his latest bad judgement call, too...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

I don't believe in the statement that pilots are better canopy pilots, I think their experience may actually put them into more danger. This is due to the fact that they may push canopy performance too quickly.

Some of what you say may be true, and some isn't. It really all boils down to the individual.

I recently started up a thread concerning to swoop or not to swoop and it was based on an analogy that flying a canopy and swooping is completely different that what airplane pilots are taught. Airplane pilot's are taught to monitor their airspeeds on short-final because too little airspeed and you run the risk of stalling and too much airspeed and the airplane remains in ground effects while much needed runway is left behind. Now as swoopers (keeping in mind I'm just a novice swooper) we like to carry tons of airspeed in order to create lift opportunities and increase our swoop distance.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[listo 0]

The only thing I can see that an airplane pilot could bring to the table for canopy skills would be that they might be a little more used to the depth perception issues from the air. Other than that, I don't think an airplane pilot has diddly squat of experience to offer for canopy flight. It is a completely different world, no way comparible. I have been flying airplanes for 14 years. I never used my airplane skills when flying a canopy because there is not one cross referrance.

Just one more ignorant fallacy in my opinion.

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[skycat 0]

Quote

The only thing I can see that an airplane pilot could bring to the table for canopy skills would be that they might be a little more used to the depth perception issues from the air. Other than that, I don't think an airplane pilot has diddly squat of experience to offer for canopy flight. It is a completely different world, no way comparible. I have been flying airplanes for 14 years. I never used my airplane skills when flying a canopy because there is not one cross referrance.

Just one more ignorant fallacy in my opinion.

From what I've seen of pilots is they pick up the basics faster than your average student. They understand flying a pattern, how to set up into the wind and they tend to get the flare dialed in faster. Beyond that each one is different, and the same things that affect what other jumpers decide to jump are the same. How current they are, how athletic they are, their exit weight, and natural talent.

Fly it like you stole it!

[kallend 1,649]

Quote

The only thing I can see that an airplane pilot could bring to the table for canopy skills would be that they might be a little more used to the depth perception issues from the air. Other than that, I don't think an airplane pilot has diddly squat of experience to offer for canopy flight. It is a completely different world, no way comparible. I have been flying airplanes for 14 years. I never used my airplane skills when flying a canopy because there is not one cross referrance.

Just one more ignorant fallacy in my opinion.

I disagree with your evaluation. I was an airplane pilot (and glider pilot) long before I started skydiving. I found out (and my instructors confirmed) that flying a pattern, setting up for landing, judging the flare, and landing in the peas were all skills I picked up much faster than average, whereas my freefall skills were all pretty average.

Now, I never hook turn to landing in my plane (a Mooney), nor in a glider, so I don't suppose that is a canopy skill that piloting would help me with. However, the visual picture at flare under my Stiletto is remarkably similar to the visual picture I get in,say, a Schweizer 1-26 glider with full spoilers (maybe a bit slower, thank goodness).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[fundgh 0]

What does this have to do with canopy progression and wing loading?

...FUN FOR ALL!

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

What does this have to do with canopy progression and wing loading

Jumpers who are pilots will sometimes progress to fast with their canopy choices and wingloading, that's how it came up.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[fundgh 0]

I understand the manufacturers recommendations being so low (they have to protect themselves), but it seems like alot of skydivers are hypocritical when it comes to experience vs. wingloading topics. I am new to the sport, but I have yet to see a small skydiver that owns his own gear have anything larger than a Sabre 170. In fact why is it that every where I have been the only people flying 170 or larger are older JMs with 3000+ jumps?

Is 1.25 to 1 really an unsafe wingload for a novice jumper with a conservative canopy flight?

Should a 165 lb skydiver (190 lb. exit wght) fly a 190 sq ft. or bigger canopy for the first 100 jumps?

Should beginners stick to F-111? Is it safer than ZP?

Inquiring minds want to know!

...FUN FOR ALL!

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Is 1.25 to 1 really an unsafe wingload for a novice jumper with a conservative canopy flight?

Well, you might landed it fine 40 times, what about that one time you have to do a quick evasive maneuver to avoid another canopy that just cut you off, or an obsticle you didn't previously see?

A guy I knew hooked in that exact way, with fairly conservative wingloading with 80 jumps. He didn't die, but he'll never walk again, he's blind and it took almost 14 surgeries to rebuild his face. He hit so hard it knocked an eyeball out of his head.

Quote

Should a 165 lb skydiver (190 lb. exit wght) fly a 190 sq ft. or bigger canopy for the first 100 jumps?

I would say YES!

Quote

Should beginners stick to F-111? Is it safer than ZP?

Why? F-111 is in not safer then ZP, it just handles differently, you can still hook in under a F-111 canopy. A conservatively loaded ZP canopy is fine for most novices. This is, of course, something you would want to discuss with your instructors/S&TA.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[johnny1488 1]

I flew an f1-11 for my first 50 jumps on my own gear. It might not have been the best choice (price was right), the performance sucked but I felt like I learned a lot. When I went to ZP (a little smaller too) I crapped my pants and held a lot of respect for what my new canopy was capable of. I dont think any one equasion is for everyone. You cant go wrong with a light wingloading for novice canopy pilots. My first own canopy was at 60 jumps @ 1.13:1 , My canopy now is 415 jumps @ 1.42:1. I would not want to be at that under 100 jumps no matter how conservative I was. I feel I could (and sometimes want to) handle more now but will wait until my skill catches up with my balls.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[ramon 0]

He is a "bold" pilot...if you get the old/bold pilots thing.

"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce.

[kallend 1,649]

Quote

What does this have to do with canopy progression and wing loading?

Thread drift. If you don't like it, try rec.skydiving

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[listo 0]

I really don't see thread drift here. People for the most part are talking about their own experiences under different types of canopies at different levels of their careers.

Personally, I was a dumb, hard headed idiot that almost killed myself. I don't have a problem admitting it now because I have learned from it and hope that someone else might as well. My story is this, on jump number 120 I bought a viper 120 which I loaded at 1.65:1. On jump number 156 I pounded myself into the ground breaking 3 vertabrae in my back, breaking and dislocation of my left hip and shattering my left femur into 5 pieces. I had to spend six months away from skydiving. I also had to relearn everything I thought that I knew about canopies. It turned out that I didn't know diddly about it even though I had stainless balls and a hard head to protect my brain. Bouncing 10 feet into the air after hitting the ground in a dive really sucks. I think I pose as a great example of why low timers don't need to be flying high wing loadings, it is just terribly dangerous.

Currently, I am swooping my butt off and with accuracy as well. I am also flying at 2.0 right now too. Mind you that I don't snatch hooks anymore, rather I tend to get the long smooth carves that build radical speed. The kind that are a lot easier to bail out of if need be. I got lucky and then got smart. I would much rather have just gotten smart and left the luck up to someone else.

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[christopherm 0]

I haven't made the safest wing loading decisions either. I, however, have been blessed enough to have not pounded in yet. I went off of student status to a loading of 1.12:1. Somewhere around 160 jumps I went to 1.23:1. Then at right around 450 jumps I went to 1.72:1. That's a pretty big jump. Before I switched to my Stilletto 107, I had jumped some other, higher wing loaded, canopies but it deffinately wasn't enough to be proficient at those particular loadings. I scared the shit out of myself a couple of times before I reached the Stilletto but never since. I think the most important lesson I've learned so far is about making decisions. Most canopy fatalities are proceeded by a series of decisions made by the pilot that led to his demise. Learn to stop that chain reaction at the first decision and choose the right path. I find my self falling back on this, especially during the off season when I don't jump as much. But, the more disciplined you become at making good decisions, the safer you will be. If traffic is bad, or you set up a little low, or the wind is coming over the hanger, SAVE IT FOR ANOTHER DAY! If you don't you might not skydive again.

-So, how hard is the ground?!

[underdog 0]

Quote

He didn't die, but he'll never walk again

[AggieDave 6]

Do you know Travis? Last update I heard is that he'd never walk again, but that was probably 9 months ago.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[underdog 0]

yup, I've known him since he started jumping.

he was here at skydive texas just before xmas. he's getting around pretty good. he started using a candy stripe cain to see where he's going instead of being led around. the only downfall is if he's close you might get your ankles whacked

[AggieDave 6]

I was at Eagle Flight the day it happened, just met him before he went on that jump, talked to him for a little bit, then he went up and did that jump.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[underdog 0]

He wasn't very current...he just downsized canopies..and it was his first jump at a diferent dropzone.

also this dropzone had a much tighter landing area than what he was used to.

I use him as an example to newbies that are hot to downsize.

yes he lived but that's about it.

btw i may be talking out my butt about the downsize part... I heard from some that he was under Ron's Omega and from others that he was under his manta.

maybe you can clear that up for me

[AggieDave 6]

For some reason I was thinking he was under a Sabre, so maybe it was the Omega. That was my second weekend to ever be at a DZ and it happened right before my 3rd jump, so that's a little hazy in my memory. Although, the events leading up to it, his jump numbers, etc are set in stone in my memory.

I too use Travis' unfortunate accident as an example for low time jumpers wanting to downsize too quickly!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[listo 0]

I agree completely that it sucks using someone else's story to emphasize the dangers of downsizing. It takes a personal meaning though when it is your own story.

I would never wish my pain of my stupid mistake on my worst enemy. Now, Sadam Hussein or Osama.....well that is another story. I would like to take them on a tandem, disconnect while in free fall and then deploy while I held onto their hair.

On a serious note though.....hitting the ground hurts like hell. Although it isn't a pain that words can describe. I am going to try for those of you that haven't felt it so you might not want to even get close to it.

It feels kind of like having the breath knocked out of you and at the same time feeling like your soul is clawing its way out with razor blades. If that isn't enough, spending weeks and months feeling your stupidity everytime you roll over in bed or try to walk adds 100x the reminder of how stupid it was to even take a chance with your health in that manner. All of this is if you are lucky enough to be alive to feel it. There will be times when you will be glad to feel that pain and then there will be times that you will wish you had died so the pain would go away. Meds only work on your brain, not the pain.

So for any of you hot shots out there that think it is cool to downsize......remember that most of the people out there that are alive and swooping the small stuff has put in the time and gained the experience the hard way.

The hard way can be one of two things........either hitting the ground or putting in the years and jumps to get good enough to usually be where they are. Either way, the latter usually is what people come back to if they are still alive.

Just a thought from someone who has been there.



"a closed mind is a wonderful thing to waist"-me

Live today as tomorrow may not come

[Samurai136 0]

Quote

There will be times when you will be glad to feel that pain and then there will be times that you will wish you had died so the pain would go away. Meds only work on your brain, not the pain.

Then there's the times when you are back in the air under canopy making a riser turn to final and you have a flash-back and bail out even though you were safe.

I feel your pain.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken