Atair Base Canopy

[cobaltdan 0]

(i posted a quick product annoucement a few days ago but it lacked information....new one to follow)


introducing the atair troll vtec canopy:

the Troll vtec has a vented bottom skin that improves low-altitude,no-slider opening performance.The vents reduce the time between bottom skin inflation
and full pressurization.The vents are made of marquisette pilot chute mesh and span 2,3,5 and 6-cells just ahead of the "B" lines.

The pressure inside of a canopy is higher than on the bottom surface.The air normally escapes through bottom skin vents and glide ratio decreases compared to normal canopy. Atair designed a sleeve type valve to prevent this. The valves allow air to enter the canopy but not escape.The glide ratio of the vtec Troll is the same as non vented Troll.

Slider up jumps from 4 to 8 sec delay show inflation improvment. maximum tested delays were 14 sec delays.In this case it is very important to roll the nose of canopy and stop tracking before canopy deployment,otherwise openings are hard.



sincerely,

daniel preston
atair aerodynamics
www.extremefly.com

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)

[riggerrob 558]

How tall are your tube vents relative to the height of the ribs?

[SkyMissy 0]

Did you guys license the "vtec" concept from BR? I thought "vtec" was just vents, no valves.

________________________________________________
Mike

[cobaltdan 0]

no, the valves are our own design based on patents from one of our canopy designers.

but thank you for pointing out that we probably should not use the term 'vtec' as that was coined by another company. i without thinking used it as short for a valved canopy design.

sincerely,

dan<><>

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)

[3fLiEr 0]

"Atair designed a sleeve type valve to prevent this"

Sleeve type?? can you build on that description - Does this differ at all to the way CR shut off their vents?

Be Safe Be Low

Michael

[Zennie 0]

Is this the same or a different version than the one that has been selling in Europe?

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[cpoxon 0]

From what I've seen, BR and CR use flaps to close the vents but Atair use a tube of material extending from the valve to close it. The idea being that is seals from different 'angles of air'?

[SkyFlyer 0]

I saw the vented Troll being jump, slider up and slider down, in Twin Falls and Moab about a month ago and it performs like a stellar canopy. Quick, positive, on-heading openings. I'm definitely ordering one through Morpheus Technologies in the Spring to go with my new Gargoyle.

Baxter.

[cobaltdan 0]

i will post some pictures after bridge day.

sincerely,

dan<><>

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)

[flyinryan 0]

Vented canopies are the poop. I own a Fox Vtec and I love it. It is truely amazing how the things is reasy to go as soon as it opens. I have jumped unvented canopies and there seems to a mush right after opening...not so with vents. Even on short delay jumps she feels ready to fly quickly. I would highly recomend vented canopies to anyone....definatly worth the extra expense.

BASE 853

[3fLiEr 0]

Having never jumped a vented canopy (I own a Dagger) I can see the benefits for Way Low stuff - which i like cause I hate climbing! but what are they like to jump at terminal - do they give a noticable harder opening than non-vented or is there not that much difference.

Be Safe Be Low


Michael

[flyinryan 0]

The longest delay I have taken with my Fox Vtec is 7 seconds or so. I can tell you after 7 seconds the opening is "crisper" then say a mojo. But it does not hurt. Personally I like the crispness on longer delays. The biggest thing about it is that is ready to fly almost as soon as it opens. Which is cool because if you have an off heading you can get your self out of trouble a lot quicker then if you had a none vented canopy, especailly on short delays. You also have a landable canopy quicker. It also recovers from a stall really quickly and can really sink into a landing area. I love this thing.

BASE 853

[NeilQ 0]

Got to agree with you Ryan. I recently got back from Italy where I took a couple of 12/13 sec delays on a brand new 265 V-tec Fox. Openings were quick and comfy. Earlier in the year I had a couple of slammers on 8/9 sec delays on a non V-tec Fox. I have since put these down to using a large hole mesh slider with a 38" large mesh silver p/c and a crap tracking position!
For Italy I used a small hole mesh slider with a small mesh 36" blue p/c. I think my tracking had improved also, my Protrack said max vert speed across 13 sec delay was 90mph, which was nice!
Be safe, be low, enjoy

Neil

[3fLiEr 0]

How you doing Mr Q?? - Sounds like a rocking time may have been had in Europe???

Feel free to e me any Mpegs you have of the trip!!!

Be Safe Be Low.........

Michael Mac

[koidl 0]

Quote

i will post some pictures after bridge day.

sincerely,

dan<><>

Do you have some pic's already? Would like to see them.

Cheers

[cobaltdan 0]

sorry, i havn't taken them yet.

basically the valves are 'duck bill' style check valves. the full width of the cell and about 8" long on the 'bill'.

they seal very well and add vented opening performance to the troll without the usual side effect of decreasing flight performance and flare.

sincerely,

dan<><>

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)

[NeilQ 0]

Hi Mac

I`m good and you?
You are quite right Italy was fun. The fog and wind stopped us getting as many as we would have liked, but we got 2 off the BIG cliff and 1 off the "little" lakeside cliff in 3 days so it could have been worse. The`re was some carnage as is to be expected on these trips, and my bruises have only just gone down, still the local plum spirit helped ease the pain!

I`ll mail you an mpeg soon

C ya

Neil

[TomAiello 25]

I've had a chance to use the CR valves quite a bit, and have demoed the BR valves, and inspected the Troll valves.

The valves on the Troll are hands down the best valve system on the market. I'm not a big fan of the unvalved Troll, but the valves themselves are a significant improvement on existing technology.

Dan, are you guys willing to retrofit your valves onto other manufacturers canopies? I've got a FOX that's desparately in need of some new valves.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[cobaltdan 0]

hi tom,

no retrofits on other manufacturers canopies.

and i am sure once you jump a troll within the manufacturers suggested guidelines, you will be thrilled with the openings.


proof is in the putting, to restate a previous offer: jump a properly loaded troll and i will provide a belly cam to wear for evidence and analysis. until then kindly stop with the negative comments.

sincerely,

dan<><>

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

until then kindly stop with the negative comments

Dan, the point of these forums is just that, to put opinions out there, good/bad and let others decide if they value those opinions or not. Tom has experience with the canopy and posted his opinion. Just like the opinions I've posted about all the different canopies I've jump, just like everyone else on these boards.

You might want to PM something like this in the future.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[cobaltdan 0]

not posted on this forum (but covered on blinc) is that tom's opinion is based on using a troll outside of our (the manufacturer's) recommended guidlines.

it would be like me telling everyone "i am highly experienced and in my experience stilletto's suck", but leave out the fact that i only jumped one at a wingloading not recommended by pd.

sincerely,

dan<><>

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

not posted on this forum (but covered on blinc) is that tom's opinion is based on using a troll outside of our (the manufacturer's) recommended guidlines.

The majority of the world's most experienced jumpers (I do not count myself in that number) tend to jump their BASE canopies loaded well below your recommendations. Perhaps your product ought to be revised to meet with the standard practice and recommendations of modern, experienced jumpers.

Quote

it would be like me telling everyone "i am highly experienced and in my experience stilletto's suck", but leave out the fact that i only jumped one at a wingloading not recommended by pd.

The people at PD have more jumps on Stilettos than I do.

Dan, I have 96 BASE jumps on a Troll. How many BASE jumps do you have on a Troll? How many BASE jumps do you have at all? You don't see me making relatively uneducated comments about swooping canopies, do you?

I find it interesting that the people involved with the Troll who have real BASE experience (Stane, Robert, Robert) all seem interested in my feedback, and in improving the canopy.

On the other hand, you don't seem very interested in hearing feedback at all. Your typical response is along the lines of "I am the manufacturer, so I must be right."

Perhaps if you were a little less defensive, you would take my feedback and try to figure out how to improve the canopy. Remember, this little interchange began with a POSITIVE comment on my part (as I recall, I was complimenting Stane's valve system).

I am unlikely to hold my tongue when I see something that could be improved. Some manufacturers will take criticisms constructively. Some will be defensive. This will not change my opinions of the product, nor will it change my willingness to speak my mind.

Perhaps, as Dave suggested, we ought to move this conversation to PM or private email?

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[bps 0]

Hi Dan --
I'm interested in the manufacturer's recommended wing-loading. I may have overlooked it, but I could not find it on Atair's website or Morpheous' website. What does Atair recommend?
On another subject:
Respectfully, I've made quite a few jumps with Tom (several multi-state trips, one extended international trip, and dozens of local loads...amounting to 100+ jumps together) and I've found him to be one the most thorough people I've ever met when it comes to evaluating gear. Sure, we all have our personal opinions, but Tom will continue to jump a product, test-drop it, measure it with every scale known to man, and then formulate his own opinion. Certainly much more than I or many others are willing to do.
Tom has given the Troll praise in many areas (flight characteristics being one of them), but he has also found some traits that he doesn't like (opening characteristics being one). Regardless, I enjoy comparing data with a fellow experienced jumper who formulates his opinions from definitive experience, and not just a small handful of jumps. He's willing to give the bad with the good. And he's more than willing to tell people that his opinion is solely based on his own anaylisis and it's up to each person to go out and see what works for themselves.
At any rate, I'm interested in Atair's thoughts on wing-loading. Is it higher than the current accepted standard of .7ish?
Thanks and Blue Skies,
Bryan

[AggieDave 6]

Then instead of trying to stop him from talking and making yourself look much less then a tactful businessman who is trying to explain the difference in opinion and persuade people to your side, and more like a bully; post some hard data and tactfully disprove his stance. That would give you a very good image and as we all know, in the business world image accounts for a lot more then it should.

This is just the opinion of someone who's been conversing in the electronic medium since 1987.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[cobaltdan 0]

tom,

this has been beat to death on blinc, by robert & kathy, and by on the side stane and robert. you just do not want to listen or admit you are incorrect. i simply took a stab at it after hearing you advise one too many times at bridge day that "troll open like shit" to anyone that would listen. to the point where i believe it hurts your credibility, seeing as you are the only one who thinks so and refuse to jump our recommended size. robert and kathy have tried to bend over backwards to acomodate you, as have other manufacturers, but you seem to want the attention more than the information and it is wearing thin for alot of people.

i will move this off line and simply leave off with the original offer.

"jump a properly loaded troll and i will provide a belly cam to wear for evidence and analysis."

---video does not lie----

end of rant.

dan<><>

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)