Falling out of a rig

[ladyskydiver 0]

Thanks for checking to make sure. It's appreciated.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[alan 1]

The harness is part of the TSO'd system. Would this be considered a modification to that system?

alan

[slug 1]

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snip there is no "simple fix" to it. The Sigma tandem harness has a piece of webbing on the back that helps, but there is nothing similar on any sport rig I've ever seen. Its going to have to be a ground up redesign of a harness to eliminate it, not an "Extra piece of webbing" sewn on.

You haven't seen my rig.

A solution: I had a rigger make a connector for me. It is a piece of webbing with loops at each end. The loops slide over each of the leg straps. It is pulled up all the way to the top of the leg strap in back. The overall length should be such that the tension in the strap is snug when your leg straps are tightened for a jump. The loops are slightly smaller than the width of the leg straps so that it can stay in place without any additional tacking or rigging. I have been using this for a few years now.

This strap looks very much like the free floating tandem chest straps but it is not adjustable.

Every once in a while people ask me what that is for. I tell them that I can get out of my rig with both parachutes packed. It's even easier when the main is out. The strap makes it harder, if not impossible, to get out. Most people think I'm overly anal about falling out backwards.

For most jumpers on most deployments, the split saddle has a remote possibility of allowing someone to fall out. This would result is a catastrophic event, the death of the jumper.

For other jumpers the probability is higher and may be close to very probable. I think it is only a matter of time before a sitflyer with a premee gets his rig yanked off of him.

I spoke with a very experienced TI about this and he said his school put those little bungy things on all of the tandem passenger harnesses. He even told me of one jump where the passenger almost fell out (before they had the bungy things installed). There was nothing he could do to help keep her in. He felt helpless, but fortunately she did not fall out.

He also told me of a large student that went fetal when he pulled. The jumper almost fell out. The chest strap was up around his neck. The leg straps were down at his knees. The jumper could not reach his toggles either.

This TI also modified one tandem harness for special needs people. It has two extra straps to hold the buttocks in. He also uses this harness for some elderly jumpers who may not have strength in their hips.

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Hi MIH

Your The bungee strap and your solution to the remote possiability of falling out of a harness got me thinking About "back in the day" jumping military surplus rigs. These rigs came with a connector strap between the legs straps.

When these rigs were modified so the harness had a split saddle it was a nice improvement in the comfort level, but folks were only doing style ACC and belly flying.

The sport has evolved and the rigs with it so that the head downers don't have to worry about premature opening due to exposed PC bridles etc.

Maybe it's time for the harness manufactures to consider offering the option to the FF's of a solid saddle so a $2 bungee band aid isn't required on a $2k container.

R.I.P.

Remember the pre split saddle days?

[billbooth 10]

We all went to split saddles because solid saddles were uncomfortable, and very hard to fit correctly without an adjustable main lift web. Besides, I don't think a solid saddle offers any more protection from falling out of a mis-adjusted harness anyway. The strap between the legs straps of a split saddle harness, yielding a split-solid saddle, was also terribly uncomfortable, if it was not exactly the right length. This required an adjuster that you sat on...also not very popular. Harnesses evolved in response to what skydivers wanted and needed to do relative work and now freestyle. The grass may seem greener on the other side, but I still remember how uncomfortable those solid saddle rigs were, and am not anxious to return to those days. Falling out of a harness is of course a terrible tragedy, but it is also very, very rare. Although no firm numbers are available, it seems to be a one in 20,000,000 or even greater event, or far rarer than even your chance of being struck by lightning. In comparison, the risk of a skydiver dying on a given jump is about one in 86,000. Also remember that falling out of a harness is not a random event. There is almost always a logical cause.

[mnealtx 0]

I recall the lumbar strap being mentioned on the tandem pax harness, but it sort of got glossed over in the saddle discussion.

Would that type of strap make any sort of difference in "closing the hole"? It seems like a strap sitting across the small of your back would at least help a bit...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[riggerrob 561]

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I recall the lumbar strap being mentioned on the tandem pax harness, but it sort of got glossed over in the saddle discussion.

Would that type of strap make any sort of difference in "closing the hole"? It seems like a strap sitting across the small of your back would at least help a bit...

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You are thinking in the right direction.
Most skydiving harnesses have a lumbar strap, but it is hidden inside the back pad.
Tandem student harnesses usually have adjustable lumbar straps (with the possible exception of Vector tandem, but it has been a while since I have jumped Tandem Vector and in any case would replace it with a fresh Sigma student harness).

Yes, we can play "table tricks" with any skydiving harness ... however this is most likely to be a problem with second-hand rigs.
The worst case scenario involves a long MLW with a short container/backpad. Since the backpad is significantly shorter than the MLW, the hip joint is "split" with the lumbar/lateral strap sewn on 2 or 3 inches above the hip ring. Couple this with a second owner who is shorter and thinner than the first and it is easy for him to fall out butt first.
If leg straps slide away from the buttocks and towards the knees - before opening shock - .... you are having a bad day .... and it is going to get worse.

Before opening shock, bungees do help by keeping the leg straps near the buttock/thigh crease. If leg straps are in the correct position before opening shock, they generally stay in the correct position until landing.
Fancier elastics - like the wide triangular elastic available on Mirage G4 - just do a better job of holding leg straps near your buttocks.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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The harness is part of the TSO'd system. Would this be considered a modification to that system?

Not any more than putting an altimeter or hook knife on your harness.

pics attached.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[alan 1]

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The harness is part of the TSO'd system. Would this be considered a modification to that system?

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Not any more than putting an altimeter or hook knife on your harness.

Does an altimeter or hook knife connect two pieces of load bearing webbing, carry any load from the wearer, or transfer any loads?

alan

[RogerRamjet 0]

That strap is a little lower than the original built in straps on the rigs of the mid '70s. The original Wonderhogs, Eagle Rigs, SST, etc. all had a strap running from the leg strap junction through the backpad to the other leg strap junction.

As in this link:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/gallery/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=Personal_Galleries/RogerRamjet/Blast_from_the_Past&image=RogTraciGreg-2.jpg&img=&tt=

If this strap still exists today, I think it has migrated up the jumpers back as the containers have gotten smaller to the point where the "hole" is now large enough to egress through. Add in articulated harnesses with hip rings and that only exacerbates the problem.

I like your strap solution very much! I would think the harness makers could easily integrate a strap into their designs as well.

-----------------------
Roger "Ramjet" Clark
FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

[mnealtx 0]

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The worst case scenario involves a long MLW with a short container/backpad. Since the backpad is significantly shorter than the MLW, the hip joint is "split" with the lumbar/lateral strap sewn on 2 or 3 inches above the hip ring. Couple this with a second owner who is shorter and thinner than the first and it is easy for him to fall out butt first.
If leg straps slide away from the buttocks and towards the knees - before opening shock - .... you are having a bad day .... and it is going to get worse.

Thanks for the reply, Rob -

In re: my snip above - what if the lumbar strap was attached to the hip rings, or slightly above, in a non-ringed harness? Would that go further to alleviate the problem, and could it be retrofitted without a whole new TSO certification?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[MakeItHappen 15]

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The harness is part of the TSO'd system. Would this be considered a modification to that system?

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Not any more than putting an altimeter or hook knife on your harness.

Does an altimeter or hook knife connect two pieces of load bearing webbing, carry any load from the wearer, or transfer any loads?

nope, unless a line gets hung up on them.

Can't see how the tso would be invalidated.

Two master riggers made the strap knowing where it would be placed.

One of those riggers plus another master rigger have repacked my rig for the last 3 years with that strap on the rig.
Heck, even Sparky, a senior rigger, commented to me a few weeks ago that mfgs have been trying to eliminate that strap and I go ahead and put it back on.

And the strap is exactly the same as the two straps that the TI, I spoke of earlier, put on a tandem passenger harness for special needs people. The straps are shorter and more under the butt. He tacked the straps too.

I may be 'retro', but I think the strap is needed.

If you have not tried getting out of your rig with or without the main in the pack tray, then I suggest you do. You can do it just after you land.
Imagine having a canopy collision or crw wrap that tosses your butt out that hole.

I do not think this is a major problem on all rigs for all jumpers. It is a problem on smaller rigs, rigs with hip rings and, of course, tandem harnesses for special needs people that may be too loose or improperly adjusted.

Last weekend I tried to wiggle out of a strong tandem harness. I could only do it if I loosened the leg straps about 2-3 inches. Funny thing was that I could pull the harness over my torso and then could pull the harness (legstraps PLUS the lower horizontal) off my legs. IOW, I went out the hole above the horizontal strap. If I loosened the leg straps more, I could get out below the horizontal strap.
I wasn't able to try the sigma harness. This weekend I'll try that one.

On the tandem harnesses, I think the 'problem' is more one of properly adjusting the harness than a design flaw.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[tr027 0]

This is just a guess in the dark...but what about adding a type 17 backstrap connecting the hip rings? for articulated harnesses, would this be easier than sewing onto the top of the legstrap?

"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

[MakeItHappen 15]

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This is just a guess in the dark...but what about adding a type 17 backstrap connecting the hip rings? for articulated harnesses, would this be easier than sewing onto the top of the legstrap?

I did not have the straps sewn to the harness. It floats.
See post 35 and 46 of this thread FMI.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[tr027 0]

I like it.. I think it should be a manufacturer supplied option. Having it float is a good idea too.

"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

[alan 1]

Well, first you claim that adding the backstrap is no more a modification than adding a hook knife or altimeter. Then when questioned about load bearing and transfer of loads you admit that an alti and knife do not do that, but try to muddy things up by adding "unless a line gets hung up on them". That is true but not part of the criteria for determining alterations or modifications.

Now you simply claim not to see how the TSO would be invalidated. Fair enough, because I don't believe there is a clear answer in the FARs. You can however refer to AC 105-2C for "guidance" and it should be followed, even though it is not "law". At least, that is what they say.

1.24.2 Par. 8 Parachute alterations
I won't type it all out here as it is easily accessed in PPM page 30. It is not very definitive but examples mentioned include installation of reinforcement tape or fittings, alterations of the harness such as changing the size, removal of a manufacturer-installed part .......
Reading on though it is apparent that the FAA expects a person qualified to alter a TSO'd sytem to contact their local FSDO inspector to discuss the proposed alteration.

I was always taught that if there was any doubt, call the manufacturer. Seems reasonable. It may even be the first question the FSDO inspector would ask; "What does the manufacturer say?"

Par. 10 on page 31 of PPM may also add some insight. It discusses "Extra equipment".
"Attachment of an instruement panel, knife sheath, or other material to the exterior of the parachute assembly is not considered an alteration."

Clearly it describes the non-load bearing or transfering items such as knife and altimeter "unless a line gets hung up on them" that you compared your strap to.

Par. 10 goes on to state: "If any extra equipment is attached to a harness, care should be taken not to impair the functional design of the system."

Clearly not a smoking gun one way or the other and obviously open to interpretation by a FSDO inspector, as is so true of most of the FARs. That is my point. If there is any doubt, the rigger should at the very least consult the manufacturer. A seemingly minor alteration, that on the surface doesn't appear to affect the functional design of the system mjay have hidden and unintended consequences. An example that comes to mind is a few years back someone converted a rig from ROL to BOC and in the process, cut the velcro off the harness to tidy things up. Unfortunately, on that particular system, the velco was attched with the harness stitching and the harness failed. Then there was the unfortunate incident with Patrick D.

Maybe now you can see how the TSO may be invalidated. Maybe, just maybe, your master riggers and Sparky were just a little too sure of themselves and made an error in judgement. At the very minimum, I believe your are sending a very dangerous meassage to the readers of this forum. They read your comments and think, hey she knows her stuff, that must be a good idea and they run out and imitate you. Pretty soon, any "good idea" just about anyone has is cause to ask your rigger to make untested changes.

I'm a rigger and I've done the try to fall out of it tests. I don't have anything against making things safer, just try to do it in the right way. If you and your riggers truly believe that making a change to the load distribution of your TSO'd harness does not impair the functional design of the system (without any standard for the type of webbing or stitch pattern), then all is well, but think about how readers of this forum may interpret your actions before advocating them to such a large audience.

alan