Landing w/out flare toggles?

[livendive 8]

So I came up with a question this weekend. I pick up my flare toggles fairly low, and on one jump, the first time I tried to turn after I grabbed them I realized I couldn't. I looked up and there was a tension knot low on the auxilliary brake line that was preventing the line from coming through the guide ring. I was able to change the angle I was pulling it a little and then a good yank cleared it so I had a normal landing. It got me to thinking though. If I hadn't been able to clear it, I'd have had to land without the flare toggles, on a pretty warm day, without a breath of wind. I don't know how that'd turn out. Anyone here landed without flare toggles (and I don't mean configured such that there aren't flare toggles)? Is it as simple as flare higher and more aggressively and prepare for an arrival or what?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[diablopilot 2]

Yes I have. Depends on the canopy but it sucks. On the Icaruse canopies when set up with a 6-2 configuration (6 lines to the main and 2 to the flare toggles) it's not too bad. With a 4-4 it's harsher. On the Sigma you have to be on it to get a decent landing. Point is pick them up early on, I never pick them up lower than 1500 AGL, and do a seperat test flare using only them prior to establishing my pattern.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Kimblair13 0]

Is it better/worse with flare toggles? Is it simply a preference. We have SET's and Icarus' and neither have flare toggles, just one set.

[livendive 8]

Quote

Point is pick them up early on, I never pick them up lower than 1500 AGL, and do a seperat test flare using only them prior to establishing my pattern.

Depending on the canopy I'm using (varies every jump between Icarus 330/365/400 & EZ-384/425), the time of day, and the size of my student, I pick them up somewhere between 800 and 2000. A separate test flare sounds like a good idea. I think I'll add that to my process at the top.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[FlyinseivLP2 0]

No big deal to land without the flare toggles. I land about 25% of my tandems without them. Can stand up in no wind without them, although I am not recommending that you don't use them in no wind, It can be done. On windy days there is no need them IMO. I jump EZ 384's and A2's.

[bodypilot1 0]

After I open I immediately do a controllability check with the main toggels, then hand them to the passenger.
I then do a flare with the flaring toggles, release them, and then nicely explain to the student that they may feel their hips drop and inch or so, and that I am not letting them go, but just getting us ready to practice getting our legs up for landing.
I release the laterals while the students have the toggles in their hands, as this makes them feel more secure for some reason.
I then repick up the flaring toggles and hold them while the student flys the canopy with my instruction, and let the steering lines run through my fingers loosly and assist in turns should they need any help.
I then tell them to let go of the toggles at the crosswind leg and flare myself, always.

I think picking up the flaring toggles at a low altitude will set you up for the exact situation you discibed, as well as cause you to take your focus off of the other canopies in the air at such a critical altitude of your landing.


Be safe.
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[livendive 8]

I don't let my students play with the toggles all that much unless they're progression tandems. I'll ask some of those who seems like once-and-done tandems if they want to help steer...probably 60% say something along the lines of "umm, no, I'll leave that to you." I do agree on the controllability check of the flare toggles up high now. Lesson learned - If there's a problem with them it's better to learn it at the top then at the bottom. As for the laterals, I include the loosening of them in my briefing so all I have to do is say "OK, now I'm going to loosen the bottom straps like I said I would. It feels a little odd, but don't worry, you're not getting away from me."

I loosen rather than disconnect the laterals because a dangling lateral bit me in the ass once a few years ago. I was having a student help me land, and at 300 feet or so we made a turn. When I said "Stop turn", he kept holding the toggle down. I said somewhat aggressively "Let the toggle up NOW" and heard him kind of grunt and sputter "I can't". I looked down and the hook on the lateral had snagged the cuff of his jumpsuit and his wrist was bent such that the toggle was trapped. I dropped my toggles, punched the snag hard enough to rip the cuff off, grabbed the brake lines and flared. We walked away, but the potential existed for substantial injury. I don't let (non-progression) tandems help me land anymore, but I see the lower loop in the main toggles as having the same snag potential. For me, the extra 2 or 3 seconds disconnecting on the ground is worth not worrying about that possibility.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[riggerrob 558]

Call me a neanderthal, but I prefer to tie all my steering lines to just two toggles.
The primary reason is that I like to keep my eyes "outside the cockpit" while turning onto final approach.
The other reason is that left hand is already busy with a Handy-Mount and I am not sure if I have enough brain cells to fumble for an extra toggle.

Back when F-111, Strong 520 mains were fashionable, we discarded flare toggles and just tied all the steering lines to two toggles. Sure they required a lot of muscle to flare, but that is why we practice on chin-up bars during our days off.
When I test-jumped the Firebolt 398 with extra flare toggles. I told Jump Shack that regular toggle pressure was so light, separate flare toggles were just silly.

[livendive 8]

Quote

Call me a neanderthal, but I prefer to tie all my steering lines to just two toggles.
The primary reason is that I like to keep my eyes "outside the cockpit" while turning onto final approach.

You're the second person to mention the "attention" aspect. Unless the slider is REALLY shaking the risers, I don't even look when picking up the flares. Plus, I usually pick them up well above my base leg.

It's kind of interesting how every TI develops their own "routine".

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)