Tandem rating question

[lister55 0]

What type of physical do I need to get for the tandem rating. Does this same physical also apply for AFF?

[diablopilot 2]

Airmans 3rd class medical.*

The Doc will thump your chest check your eyes, have you pee in a cup, and probably sign you off if you can make it into the office under your own power and pay his fee.

(*at least this is so for US ratings)

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[lister55 0]

Thats awesome!......lol thanks.

[slotperfect 7]

What JP said.

In addition, I know both Strong and RWS will accept the "military equivalent" of an FAA Class III medical.

In the Army's case, a DA 4186 ("Up Slip") from your clinic will suffice.

Arrive Safely

John

[diablopilot 2]

If you need to find a Doctor for your examination check here: http://ame.cami.jccbi.gov/

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[lister55 0]

Yeah Ive called a couple doctors I Thanks for the info.

[bodypilot1 0]

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"Does this same physical also apply for AFF? "

No.
But it does require you to be good skydiver.
The rating is ALOT HARDER to get, not as hard as years ago IMO, but it not a walk in the park either.

-

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[Hooknswoop 19]

FAA Medical is not required by the FAA.

§105.45 Use of tandem parachute systems.
(a) No person may conduct a parachute operation using a tandem parachute system, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow any person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft using a tandem parachute system, unless --
(1) One of the parachutists using the tandem parachute system is the parachutist in command, and meets the following requirements:
(i) Has a minimum of 3 years of experience in parachuting, and must provide documentation that the parachutist --
(ii) Has completed a minimum of 500 freefall parachute jumps using a ram-air parachute, and
(iii) Holds a master parachute license issued by an organization recognized by the FAA, and
(iv) Has successfully completed a tandem instructor course given by the manufacturer of the tandem parachute system used in the parachute operation or a course acceptable to the Administrator.
(v) Has been certified by the appropriate parachute manufacturer or tandem course provider as being properly trained on the use of the specific tandem parachute system to be used.
(2) The person acting as parachutist in command:
(i) Has briefed the passenger parachutist before boarding the aircraft. The briefing must include the procedures to be used in case of an emergency with the aircraft or after exiting the aircraft, while preparing to exit and exiting the aircraft, freefall, operating the parachute after freefall, landing approach, and landing.
(ii) Uses the harness position prescribed by the manufacturer of the tandem parachute equipment.
(b) No person may make a parachute jump with a tandem parachute system unless --
(1) The main parachute has been packed by a certificated parachute rigger, the parachutist in command making the next jump with that parachute, or a person under the direct supervision of a certificated parachute rigger.
(2) The reserve parachute has been packed by a certificated parachute rigger in accordance with §105.43(b) of this part.
(3) The tandem parachute system contains an operational automatic activation device for the reserve parachute, approved by the manufacturer of that tandem parachute system. The device must --
(i) Have been maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions, and
(ii) Be armed during each tandem parachute operation.
(4) The passenger parachutist is provided with a manual main parachute activation device and instructed on the use of that device, if required by the owner/operator.
(5) The main parachute is equipped with a single-point release system.
(6) The reserve parachute meets Technical Standard Order C23 specifications.

I haven't done a tandem in a long time, and haven't made a skydive in 6 months, but I could legally act as a Parachutist in command because I still meet all of the FAA's requirements.

Derek

[diablopilot 2]

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(v) Has been certified by the appropriate parachute manufacturer or tandem course provider as being properly trained on the use of the specific tandem parachute system to be used.

I'm not sure you could. The manufacture or course provider (USPA) requires the Medical. If you don't keep the medical current they can pull you certification (rating).


Edit: I feel confident in Dereks abilities and more importantly in his self evaluation of his abilities, and readiness to say he'd brobably be ok doing a tandem, but then he's the exception to the rule

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I'm not sure you could. The manufacture or course provider (USPA) requires the Medical. If you don't keep the medical current they can pull you certification (rating).

Which one of the FAA's requirements do I not meet, i-iv?

I wouldn't do a tandem now, way too uncomment, but thanks for the vote of confidence

(i) Has a minimum of 3 years of experience in parachuting, and must provide documentation that the parachutist --

I have 3+ years

(ii) Has completed a minimum of 500 freefall parachute jumps using a ram-air parachute, and

I have 500+ ram-air jumps

(iii) Holds a master parachute license issued by an organization recognized by the FAA, and

I have a USPA “D” license

(iv) Has successfully completed a tandem instructor course given by the manufacturer of the tandem parachute system used in the parachute operation or a course acceptable to the Administrator.

I have completed 2 tandem instructor courses given by the manufacturers

(v) Has been certified by the appropriate parachute manufacturer or tandem course provider as being properly trained on the use of the specific tandem parachute system to be used.

I have been certified for 2 different tandem systems.

Derek

[diablopilot 2]

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(v) Has been certified by the appropriate parachute manufacturer or tandem course provider as being properly trained on the use of the specific tandem parachute system to be used.

I have been certified for 2 different tandem systems.

Yes but your certifications are dependant on your currency and maintaining specific requirements one of those being an FAA medical. They are revokable if the requirements are not met.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Yes but your certifications are dependant on your currency and maintaining specific requirements one of those being an FAA medical. They are revokable if the requirements are not met.

Really? I didn't read that in the FAR's. I think you are reading something that isn't there. All is says is has been certified. I have been certified. The FAA didn't think too hard when they re-wrote Part 105.

I'm not saying it's right, in fact I think the FAA should fix Part 105, but as it is currently written...............

Derek

[diablopilot 2]

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FAA didn't think too hard when they re-wrote Part 105.

Agreed.

I think it's a matter of semantics. Does certified mean a one time process, or is being certifies a continualy evaluated process?

Example. An aircraft is "certified" once a year when it has an anual. If you miss an anual, it's no longer "certified" and thus not leagal to operate.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I think it's a matter of semantics. Does certified mean a one time process, or is being certifies a continualy evaluated process?

Example. An aircraft is "certified" once a year when it has an anual. If you miss an anual, it's no longer "certified" and thus not leagal to operate.

But an A & P, Pilot, Parachute Rigger are all certified for life.

The FAA does not have currency requirements listed, therefore there are none. The argument that the Manufacturer can require a medical is only valid if the FAA requires it. You have to comply w/ the FAR's when skydiving, not manufacturer requirements. Manufacturers could require you to wear a pink jumpsuit, but that wouldn't mean anything to the FAA. When it comes to rules and enforcement, the FAA is the only game in town.

As for getting a tandem rating, the manufacturer won’t issue the rating w/o a copy of the candidate’s medical. But there is no requirement to send the manufacturer $30-#40 a year nor keep a FAA medical current.

If the FAA were to question me upon landing from a tandem jump, I currently meet all of their requirements to legally act as a parachutist in Command.

Derek

[tombuch 0]

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I think it's a matter of semantics. Does certified mean a one time process, or is being certifies a continualy evaluated process?

Quote

(v) Has been certified by the appropriate parachute manufacturer or tandem course provider as being properly trained on the use of the specific tandem parachute system to be used.

The regulation clearly indicates the past tense regarding certification. The jumper must have been certified. There is no provision for currency, nor is there any provision for any agency to revoke the certification. The regulation simply says that you must complete a program and be so certified. This is a foolish lapse that was brought to the attention of the FAA in the comment period, but they chose to ignore the issue. It would have been very easy to change "has been certified..." to "Is certified..." The FAA didn't make that change. The intent looks pretty obvious to me. Now it may be that the certifing agencies (manufacturers, USPA could make their certifications provisional on continuing currency, but I don't think that has happened. Any examiners want to comment?

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

The regulation clearly indicates the past tense regarding certification. The jumper must have been certified. There is no provision for currency, nor is there any provision for any agency to revoke the certification. The regulation simply says that you must complete a program and be so certified. This is a foolish lapse that was brought to the attention of the FAA in the comment period, but they chose to ignore the issue. It would have been very easy to change "has been certified..." to "Is certified..." The FAA didn't make that change. The intent looks pretty obvious to me. Now it may be that the certifing agencies (manufacturers, USPA could make their certifications provisional on continuing currency, but I don't think that has happened. Any examiners want to comment?

USPA and the tandem mfgs can and have pulled ratings.

USPA does have requirements for renewing a rating - and has for as long as I can remember. Today, renewal requirements for each rating are detailed in the IRM under a section called 'Keeping such-n-such rating Current'. Reference to these sections is on the renewal form.

Each year a USPA TM has to renew a rating with their membership. If the rating or USPA membership is not renewed then the rating lapses. IOW the jumper does not fall into 'has been certified' category.

If the FAA wrote language about ratings, revocation, renewal requirements etc, then that falls into the FAA regulating skydiving. That is something most jumpers do not want. So this leaves that avenue for an un-rated jumper to put out students (AFF, IAD, SL). Someone may do this and not break an FAR.[*] We've always known this. We've given 'the talk' to the FAA that we can self-regulate. The time this becomes important is when there is a problem skydive that results in injury or a fatality. Those that do not have ratings (from USPA or the tandem mfgs) generally suffer in a court of law.

[*] In Derek's case, if he did a tandem today he would be breaking the FARs of

(iii) Holds a master parachute license issued by an organization recognized by the FAA, and

because his USPA membership has expired. Licenses are only valid when USPA membership is current.

and

(v) Has been certified by the appropriate parachute manufacturer or tandem course provider as being properly trained on the use of the specific tandem parachute system to be used.

because he has not been certified to do tandems. His certification expired when his tandem rating expired.

Tandem jumps are regulated by the FAA.
.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

USPA and the tandem mfgs can and have pulled ratings.

USPA does have requirements for renewing a rating - and has for as long as I can remember. Today, renewal requirements for each rating are detailed in the IRM under a section called 'Keeping such-n-such rating Current'. Reference to these sections is on the renewal form.

Is all negated by,

Quote

Tandem jumps are regulated by the FAA.

Quote

[*] In Derek's case, if he did a tandem today he would be breaking the FARs of

(iii) Holds a master parachute license issued by an organization recognized by the FAA, and

because his USPA membership has expired. Licenses are only valid when USPA membership is current.

Ahh, but you do not need a USPA master parachutist license, thankfully since USPA doesn’t issue them anymore, but the FAA does recognize the FAI…….

Quote

(v) Has been certified by the appropriate parachute manufacturer or tandem course provider as being properly trained on the use of the specific tandem parachute system to be used.

because he has not been certified to do tandems. His certification expired when his tandem rating expired.

But I have been certified to do tandems. I can prove it, I have the cards. The FAR says, “Has Been certified.” The FAR’s say nothing about renewal requirements. And frankly, sending in $25.00 and getting a new card, or in one case a letter, is silly.

In the USA, you do not need to comply with USPA’s BSR’s, guidelines, etc, only the FAR’s in order to be legal. The USPA has no legal authority.

So, by the FAR’s, I am legal, and always will be unless the FAR’s change, to act as a Parachutist in Command. By comparison, I have certain currency requirements to act as a Pilot in Command, specifically, a bi-annual and a medical and if I wish to carry passengers, 3 landings and take-offs within the last 90 days, at night if I wish to carry passengers between sunset and sunrise.

Derek

[tombuch 0]

From the comments section of the final rule:

Quote

Comments: Several commenters, including USPA, recommend that
manufacturer's directives for tandem parachute systems be made
mandatory. The commenters also request that the number of freefall
jumps to qualify as a tandem jump instructor be changed from 300 of 500
freefall jumps with a ram air parachute to 500 freefall jumps, because
currently, only ram air parachutes are used. According to the
commenters, this change would reflect the recommendation by USPA and
the manufacturers for tandem jump instructor qualifications.
FAA response: The USPA's recommendation that the manufacturer's
directives for tandem parachute systems should be mandatory is outside
the scope of this rulemaking, and therefore, cannot be addressed at
this time.

Quote

(iv) Has successfully completed a tandem instructor course given by
the manufacturer of the tandem parachute system used in the parachute
operation or a course acceptable to the Administrator.
(v) Has been certified by the appropriate parachute manufacturer or
tandem course provider as being properly trained on the use of the
specific tandem parachute system to be used.

The FAA has clearly chosen not to require a tandem instructor to follow manufacturer rules, or USPA rules. The only rules that matter are FAA rules. The tandem instructor must simply have been trained, and have received certification that he was trained. The course provider is required to provide training, and then to generate some kind of testing (certification) to assure the training was received. That's it.

Following manufacturer guidelines and USPA guidelines is a good idea and will certainly be looked on favorably if there is a law suit, but self regulation can not carry the weight of law.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[AggieDave 6]

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will certainly be looked on favorably if there is a law suit

Sadly, at the end of the day, this is what matters (second to safety). Basically, I'm going to do it all "by the book" as recommended by the manufacture, the USPA and the FAA, why? Not because I think I wouldn't be safe without them, just that I don't want to get my ass sued off and something as simple as following all three might just save it.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Sadly, at the end of the day, this is what matters (second to safety). Basically, I'm going to do it all "by the book" as recommended by the manufacture, the USPA and the FAA, why? Not because I think I wouldn't be safe without them, just that I don't want to get my ass sued off and something as simple as following all three might just save it.

Agreed, but the point is what is legal and what isn't.

Derek

[NightJumper 0]

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Following manufacturer guidelines and USPA guidelines is a good idea and will certainly be looked on favorably if there is a law suit, but self regulation can not carry the weight of law.

Your kidding right? In addition to "guidelines" every tandem manufacture has requirements and has you sign some type of user agreement (legally binding contract), which is covered under commercial law. Not to mention that failure to follow the guidelines by the USPA, manufacture and the FAA that resulted in an incident would probably qualify as gross negligence and void any waiver or protection that you may of had.

And you may be able to defend your actions in a court of law but why go through the time, aggravation and expense if it is avoidable.

Mike Forsythe
Tandem IE and S&TA
Jump Shack

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

Quote
USPA and the tandem mfgs can and have pulled ratings.

USPA does have requirements for renewing a rating - and has for as long as I can remember. Today, renewal requirements for each rating are detailed in the IRM under a section called 'Keeping such-n-such rating Current'. Reference to these sections is on the renewal form.

Is all negated by,

Quote
Tandem jumps are regulated by the FAA.

There is no negation here at all.
There are FARs pertaining to tandem, SL and demo jumps, but there are no FARs pertaining to AFF or IAD jumps. There is an entire FAR, Part 65, that addresses parachute equipment and riggers. Riggers are considered 'Airmen'. Skydivers, including Parachutist in Command and demo jumpers are NOT considered Airmen.

USPA has a bunch of requirements and recommendations. These are self-enforced. USPA does not carry the weight of the law. The only penalties that USPA can implement are censure or membership/rating revocation or suspension. USPA does do this upon occasion.

In some instances, there are FARs that echo USPA rules. The FARs DO carry the weight of the law. There are FARs pertaining to tandems, therefore tandem jumps are regulated by the FAA is a true statement. In contrast, there are no FARs pertaining to AFF or IAD jumps, therefore AFF and IAD jumps are NOT regulated by the FAA.

Quote

Quote
[*] In Derek's case, if he did a tandem today he would be breaking the FARs of

(iii) Holds a master parachute license issued by an organization recognized by the FAA, and

because his USPA membership has expired. Licenses are only valid when USPA membership is current.

Ahh, but you do not need a USPA master parachutist license, thankfully since USPA doesn’t issue them anymore, but the FAA does recognize the FAI…….

If you have an FAI CoP and that CoP does not require membership in your nation's parachute organization, then you do meet the requirement. You did not state that you had an FAI CoP. I haven't looked up the rules for the conditions that the CoP is valid. The fact remains that if you only had a USPA D license and your USPA membership has expired, then your D license (and all USPA licenses and ratings) are not valid. It's in the SIM & IRM.

Quote

Quote
(v) Has been certified by the appropriate parachute manufacturer or tandem course provider as being properly trained on the use of the specific tandem parachute system to be used.

because he has not been certified to do tandems. His certification expired when his tandem rating expired.

But I have been certified to do tandems. I can prove it, I have the cards. The FAR says, “Has Been certified.” The FAR’s say nothing about renewal requirements. And frankly, sending in $25.00 and getting a new card, or in one case a letter, is silly.

In the USA, you do not need to comply with USPA’s BSR’s, guidelines, etc, only the FAR’s in order to be legal. The USPA has no legal authority.

So, by the FAR’s, I am legal, and always will be unless the FAR’s change, to act as a Parachutist in Command. By comparison, I have certain currency requirements to act as a Pilot in Command, specifically, a bi-annual and a medical and if I wish to carry passengers, 3 landings and take-offs within the last 90 days, at night if I wish to carry passengers between sunset and sunrise.

We agree that USPA has no legal authority.
We disagree about what 'has been certified' means.
I believe that in a court of law most jury members would take 'has been certified' to mean that the certification would need to be valid on the date of an incident, not one, five or ten years previously. There are existing renewal requirements.

As for the PIC comparison, USPA has long lobbied to keep such rules out of the FARs with the argument that we can self-police ourselves. The self-policing is not done as a police officer would cite people for rule infractions, but is done in a more or less peer pressure methodology. IOW, if you won't follow USPA requirements then you get kicked out of the organization. This leaves the ostracized jumpers or DZOs in a vulnerable position in a court of law.

Historically, the FAA wanted to do away with Part 65 in the 1970s. USPA petitioned the FAA to keep Part 65. This was because there were many home-built parachute systems that were substandard. Eventually, TSO 23 was developed and expanded over the years. Part 65 and TSO 23 regulate the parachute systems and the Airmen that work on the systems in the same way the corresponding FARs regulate A&Ps, pilots, etc and airframe mfgs.

Also, Part 105 has been slowly expanded to include demo jumpers and most recently tandem - Parachutist in Command. The FARS are adding in regulations to our sport. This may, one day, turn into regulations for AFF, IAD or even define all parachutists as Airmen. I believe that the prevailing thoughts of the FAA is that they do NOT want to classify parachutists as Airmen, any more than USPA does.

On the other side of this equation are the parents of jumpers that died skydiving. The parents that get all bent out of shape because there are 'no laws' pertaining to student training. One set of parents promoted the NV legislation that eventually lead to the USPA BSRs becoming a state law. Another mother tried to get similar laws passed in an eastern state (I do not recall which state). Her efforts failed. See Jumping Through Clouds.

In the 70s and 80s there were many states that had laws concerning parachuting. Parachutist magazine has many articles on how these laws were eventually removed from states of CA, MN, NY, CT, IN, IL and others.

One new local requirement in MT has closed two DZs there. MT has stated that all aviation operations must have $1M insurance. This is not available for skydiving. The FAA says that the local government must apply the same rules to all operations. This has been done and it effectively closed the skydiving operations.

I wrote a satirical look on the future of skydiving: Fast Forward to the Year 2050 a year or so ago. That is one way to see the future. Another way is to see the FAA make all jumpers and rating holders Airmen. This is an entirely different view - one that has more disadvantages than advantages. If parents of injured or deceased jumpers or jumpers clamor for more teeth in the FARs or state laws - just so there is a LAW on the books, we may see a severe reduction in the participation of skydiving. We may see a geometric expansion of lawsuits. There is a perceived advantage that one could fine or throw someone in jail for a violation, but would that really make the day-to-day operations safer?? I echo what Mike said (not because I'm a 23 year plus Racer jumper, but because what we have in place works).

A more prudent tact is to educate participants that skydiving may kill you - even if you do everything right. No sugar coating about it. We don't have to be 'doom and gloom' messengers, but we do have to make sure people realize that they may be serious hurt or killed by participating in skydiving. This is certainly a different message than what commercial airlines project.

IOW, the more FARs or state laws that pertain to skydiving, the more the general public will consider it 'safe' and a death or injury as cause for a lawsuit.
.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[mark135 0]

I am not going to get into all this mumbo jumbo, mostly cause it doesnt matter and I dont care. However,
a d.o.t. medical will also suffice for any of you commercial drivers out there.

_______________


"It seemed like a good idea at the time"

[tspillers 0]

Yes, the medical is only required by USPA and the Manufacturers now to earn/renew a rating.

Todd

I am not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Can you show me which FAR specifies Parachutist in Command currency requirements?

As for the USPA, it would best serve skydivers by working to enforce it's own BSR's to prevent an incident that the FAA won;t be able to ignore and take action and regulate skydiving. Too many bad demos, aircraft crashes w/ engines past TBO or lack of maint, etc and the FAA will be forced to step in. They don't want to and skydivers don't want them to. If no one regulates skydiving then enough incidents will cause the FAA to regulate skydiving.

Why did the volunteer DZ inspection program inspect only one DZ, which failed, then flop? A mandatory DZ inspection program with a list of DZ's that pass an annual inspection and any surprise inspection would make the USPA GM program actually worth something.

If the USPA doesn't do it, the FAA will.

Derek