Test Jump: 2 canopys out

[Hooknswoop 19]

If you have nothing out, not even a PC, pull your reserve. There is no risk of having the main deploy if you experienced a hard pull, and pulled your reserve.
Wethere or not to cutaway from a PC in tow is still up for debate w/ both sides having valid points. I think that one is a personal decision, just make the decision now so you are not trying to decide at 110 mph, 1500 ft from the ground. Your best bet is to avoid the hard pull/PC in tow situation altogether. What I recommend to students to if they have a PC in tow is to fire the reserve, and then cutaway once the reserve is deployed, so that if the main begins to deploy, it will release cleanly. Personally, because of my canopy choices, I would cutaway from a PC in tow, after attempting to reach back and pull the pin.
Hook

[fred 0]

What's the penalty for cutting away anyhow? I just don't know why it would be better to go straight for the reserve (other than a time savings).

[Hooknswoop 19]

You had it right, time savings. Depending on your container, the riser covers may or may not hold cutaway risers in place, preventing the small chance of the reserve snagging one of them on deployment.
Hook

[Opie 0]

"I don't think PD or PA want to get involved"
PD has been involved in extensive dual square testing, results were released a couple of years ago and are presented by them at seminars from time to time. This should be mandatory reading for all jumpers that haven't seen it yet.
Go to www.performancedesigns.com and click on the articles tab and then "dual square report"
Opie
If your not on the edge, you can't enjoy the view!

[Hooknswoop 19]

Small main/large reserve combinatins weren't tested. When I said I didn't think they would be interested, I ment in my test jumps and they probably don't want to say X main and X reserves OK and Y main and Y reserve is not. Liability.
Hook
From the Dual square study from PD's website (a lot of cutting and pasting)
The study was undertaken in in an effort
to evaluate the ram-air canopy as main and reserve for student use. The army
was interested, also, because some of their troops use square main/square
reserve equipment.
The Army had planned on making about 50 jumps but were only able to do about
10. The canopies used were 288 sq. ft. Mantas with Raven III (249 sq ft.) and
Raven IV (282 sq ft.) reserves. On the jumps conducted, the reserve was
deployed manually while under a fully inflated and flying main.
In late 1992 and into 1993, Scott Smith made an additional 21 jumps using
Crickets (147 sq ft.), Fury (220 sq ft.), and Sharpchuter (244 sq ft.). The jumps
were performed along the same lines as the Army tests with basically the same
results and conclusions.
Both of these studies (copies of each are included in this handout), while
encouraging, were felt to be inconclusive by the PIA technical committee.
Chairman of the committee, Sandy Reid, said that "In order to do a complete
study, other canopy combinations need to be jumped such as: large main/small
reserve, large reserve/ small main, and small main/small reserve." "In addition,
we need to consider factors such as line lengths, zero porosity fabric, and wing
loading."
conclusion: Use great care to choose proper equipment. Choose a reserve that
is similar in size to the main canopy.
2. conclusion: Use great care to choose proper equipment. Choose
canopies that are not drastically different in size. A general rule of thumb is to
choose a reserve that is similar in size to the main canopy.

[wildblue 4]

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I think a small main/large reserve combination is not the way to go. If you do not want a small reserve, don't get the small main. That is the price you pay for a small main, or be willing to accept that in a 2 canopy out situation will have a good chance of killing you. If you do have a small main/large reserve combination and an AAD, be aware that a low pull/AAD misfire will put you in a dangerous situation and cutaway the main immediately to prevent an entanglement, as the situation will get worse.

I'm not sure I agree with this (the jury is still out though) - I'd rather chance the 2 out situation, then overload a reserve with a good chance of blowing it up. Now add the other possibility of landing unconcious (which is rare, I'll agree - but if we agree that 2 out is usually caused by an aad and happens alot, and landing a reserve unconcious happens rarely, then why not jump without an aad?)
I'd like to see more info on the small main being flown with an actual reserve. Very interesting stuff
Never argue with stupid people.They just drag you down 2 their level & beat you with experience

[Hooknswoop 19]

Not to get off- topic, ok, to get off topic, if small reserves are so prone to blowing up, my hasn't my VX-60 blown up long ago? Why don't small mains blow up?
I am going to do another test jump this weekend w/ the stiletto 97 and a PD-170. Closest thing to a reserve I can come up w/. Anybody have any input to keep the test honest or make it better?
Derek

[PhreeZone 15]

Why don't mains blow up? Because they are reinforced more since they will be delpoyed hundereds of times. A reseve may be lucky to see 10 jumps in its life time. Reserves are also weighed on their small pack volume. Thats why Tempos are so popular. Small pack volume, but not near the reinforment of a PD canopy.
Another reason that Reseves get damaged is they open so much faster and harder then mains. Mains can burn off most the shock in the snivel, but a reserve has to absorb all of it. Look around at all the old Sabres that were slammers all the time. Most ended up having some sort of damage at some point, broken steering lines, split cells, etc..
Also F1-11 is'nt near the fabric as ZP.
Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush

[wildblue 4]

Quote

Not to get off- topic, ok, to get off topic, if small reserves are so prone to blowing up, my hasn't my VX-60 blown up long ago? Why don't small mains blow up?

Damn good question. The only theory I can come up with is a) Most of those zippy little mains are made to be highly loaded, and go through thousands of deployments and/or b) reserves are many times deployed in less than optimal conditions (still going too fast, unstable, uneven deployment, etc)
Never argue with stupid people.They just drag you down 2 their level & beat you with experience

[AndyMan 7]

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Not to get off- topic, ok, to get off topic, if small reserves are so prone to blowing up, my hasn't my VX-60 blown up long ago? Why don't small mains blow up?

I think the rate at which it deploys just might have something to do with it.
_Am
ICQ: 5578907
MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com
Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999

[skycat 0]

Actually maybe a better question is how come your micro-raven 109 hasn't blown up after what 6 jumps on it?

[Hooknswoop 19]

My main is not reinforved as much as my reserve is. I can't think of a single main that is reinforced more than a reserve is.
My VX opens as hard as my reserve does about half the time. Most reserve deployments are sub-terminal, all 11 of mine have been.
I will do some checking on hard numbers, but I don't believe F-111 is stronger that 0-P
Hook

[Hooknswoop 19]

The construction of my VX is not any stronger than my reserve. It doesn't have spanwise re-inforcement. I put 831 jumps on an FX-70 loaded at 2.6, no problems, why would a small reserve blow up so easily?
Hook

[skycat 0]

Cyndi said she would donate her lightning 126 to the two out cause. It's a seven cell and probably closer to a reserve than the PD-170. Of course my 97 is still up for being tangled and chopped.
Kelli

[Hooknswoop 19]

I would like to use at least a 143R or larger.....
Hook

[wildblue 4]

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why would a small reserve blow up so easily?

My "Theory B" is starting to make more sense to me...

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b) reserves are many times deployed in less than optimal conditions (still going too fast, unstable, uneven deployment, etc)

I think the few times reserves have been known to not survive a deployment have been when the person was still headdown/standing. Or possibly in such an unstable attitude that most of the opening force was taking by half or less of the system.
Never argue with stupid people.They just drag you down 2 their level & beat you with experience

[Beachbum 0]

Mine is a 160 Triathlon ... welcome to it as long as I get to watch ...

[billvon 2,400]

>Why don't mains blow up? Because they are reinforced more since they will be delpoyed hundereds of times.
> A reseve may be lucky to see 10 jumps in its life time.
Not true. Compare a Sabre to a PD reserve. Same reinforcement where it counts. Note that a main has reinforcement near the bridle attach, but that's not a strength issue - a reserve doesn't _have_ a bridle attach point. It's certainly true that some canopies are reinforced more than others - my Mojo has load tapes all over the place, and you could easily support my entire weight from the bridle attachement or the nose. In general, though, reserves do not skimp on line or nose reinforcement.
For a better comparison, compare a Raven II reserve to a Raven II main and note any differences. (Trick question there - they are exactly the same canopy.)
-bill von

[billvon 2,400]

>Not to get off- topic, ok, to get off topic, if small reserves are so prone to blowing up, my hasn't my VX-60 blown up long ago?
>Why don't small mains blow up?
I've blown up a Tri-135 (not exactly small, I know) and I had a friend who blew up a Stiletto 97. Are small reserves really more prone to blowing up, or is it just that people who really exceed the limits of their gear (i.e. 200mph+ freeflyers) tend to use small reserves?
-bill von

[Geoff 0]

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if small reserves are so prone to blowing up...

...just a check on this. ARE smaller reserves more likely to blow up than large ones? Or is it just heavy jumpers that make the damage more likely. i.e. is a 250lb jumper really more likely to damage a 150 sqft reserve than a 250 sqft reserve?
Presumably the strength of the lines, attachment points, and many other parts of the reserve will be identical for large and small reserves.
just a thought.
Geoff

[Kelly 0]

phil,
this only applies to my specific situation, with that particular canopy, its particular pack job, the particular container etc etc involved during that ONE scenario but..
when i had a total i dumped my reserve. Total for me ='s 2 attempts, dump reserve be prepared to deal w/ 2 out. so i did that. once i was safely under a good reserve i pulled my cutaway handle. This way i didnt have to worry about the possiblility of a now loose main container opening with my main still attached to my harness. It was an after thought, an extra step that i didnt believe was necessary during the actual mal.
when i landed i took my gear off. My PC had moved barely a couple of centimeters, my main was still tight, closing loop and closing pin still completely in place.
again, so many factors (could have) effected this. I'm in no way saying that every total will lead to a clean reserve deployment and a main that stays in the container. Just letting ya know what i experienced.
http://kel197.tripod.com/skydivefriendsTRIPOD/

[Hooknswoop 19]

Does anyone think that a Stiletto 97/Tri 160 would not be a good test of a small main/large reserve combo?
Hook

[Hooknswoop 19]

I've seen a lot of mains deployed unstable too. I think the reason a reserve could blow up is not related to size, but to speed and weight. I have heard, but don't know this to be true, that small reserves are stronger than large reserves. Somethng about less space between re-inforcing. It would be interesting to know if small or large reserves are stronger. I am not advocating small reserves for everyone, only similar reserves to their mains or be aware and accept that a large difference in performance between a small main and a large reserve could cause serious problems in a two out situation. Education and informed decisions is my goal.
Hook

[PhreeZone 15]

Bill... by the same token, Compare a Saber to a year old Tempo. It just might be my fuzzy memory, but I seem to remember a lot more tape on the Sabre then on the Tempo. I know the new Tempos are taped up, but the ones 6 months old are not.
As for the Raven vs Raven reserve, the Main has a full slider to allow for a slower opening. If the main had to open with the reserve slider on there every time... do you think it would still open slow, and do you think it would last as long?
Overloading the reserves are another reason I think we hear of reserves blowing up from time to time. Blowing up mains happen every weekend all over the world, but thats rarely an issue since you can chop it and go to the reserve. If breaking a steering line or ripping the main was as big of a deal as it is on the reserve, I have no doubt that we would need another fourm to handle the stories from mains that blow apart.
Going over the manufactor recommedations is a choice that is up to each jumper, but they must be aware.... there are higher risks involved in doing it.
Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush