pchapman 262 #1 April 26, 2009 How rare was it for conventional rigs to have no chest strap, so that they relied on the reserve clipped to both sides to hold things together? Was it a well accepted variation or did people quickly decide it was going a little too far? Andrewhilton recently posted a thread showing an old Super Swooper that is that way. ("Name another harness/container") But I first saw a rig like that when I got a Canadian Niagara Parachutes rig back into service last year. It has no load-bearing chest strap. There is webbing that looks like a chest strap, which simply loops around the opposite riser and velcros to itself, I suppose to make the rig stay on one's shoulders better until the reserve is hooked on. I wonder about staying in the harness during a main or especially reserve opening with a reserve connector unclipped. So much for the cross connector if things go wrong. The reserve side connectors might restrain a jumper enough to save the day. They may be a little low on the body and not very structural, but if snug might keep the jumper in the harness. I'll keep a close eye on the belly mount connectors when jumping it, but would like to know what was thought of such systems back in the day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccurley 0 #2 April 27, 2009 I owned a couple of Niagara rigs back in the 70s Probably more then half the DZ had gear from them as we were all pretty good mates with the Grims. Eddie and Ann were very frequent visitors to Coldwater and Perry was a permanent resident. Anyway, I don't recall seeing any with chest straps like that. But then again there's a lot of the 70s I don't remember Watch my video Fat Women http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRWkEky8GoI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andrewhilton 1 #3 April 27, 2009 A recent article - last year or so - in Skydiving Magazine regarding an all round jump at Deland shows Nancy LaRiviere jumping an original Super Swooper with no chest strap (that's what had me thinking the rig as per my other thread may be a Super Swooper (I still don't know)). Then again the one pictured as an example in the FAA Rigger manual does have a chest strap Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #4 April 27, 2009 I think all the conventional rigs I jumped had chest straps but don't know if I see the need. Between the chest container when closed and crossconnector, intended to take opening shock if one snap undone, I think you'd stay in it. Unless of course you had that one snap undone. I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 561 #5 April 27, 2009 That is the second harness - I have seen - with only Velcro on the chest strap. No big deal. New Velcro will hold hundreds of pounds in peel more. And Velcro lasts a two or three hundred jumps. Considering that most sport jumpers were lucky to make fifty jumps per year "back in the day..." The trick is remembering to replace the Velcro every winter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crustySCSA69 0 #6 April 27, 2009 Niagra Parachutes ...Niagra COBRA : first rig was from them with their copy of the Starlight (think it was called Cobra)... and it was the HARDEST opening canopy ever built... bar none... made a Starlight look like slow old rope-a-dope square ... got it to streamer at one point (attempts to slow the opening were way too successful) ... blew huge hole in reserve... a Starlight jumper kept tellimg me I was a 'wingeing wanker' for my pain complaints and he was going to jump it and prove what a wussy boy I was ... then he watched me open (at Z-hills) and came up to me and said 'there is NO WAY IN HELL I'd ever jump that thing ' and that was just from watching the opening... he shoulda felt it... then it ripped up my neck and I retired it forever... Niagra LOPO Reserve (4-lined) : I am back in Nova Scotia and a guy comes up in cast and asks me to jump his reserve as a main (he knew my regular main was a 4-lined Navy Conical) ... said he'd used the reserve, popped the 4-line and it went into uncrontollable fast turns... hence, broken foot... I said, impossible, but sure I'll jump it .. Open, pop 4-line, immediately head into fast right turn as if I was front risering.. only way to stop it was hard front riser going the other way... which made for very high descent rate.. should have chopped ... needed best PLF on landing just to survive when I let off the front riser near ground and it started turning again... Theory: when Grimm (good name considering his gear) built it he did not flip alternate panels over as they were added on so all Warp or Weft or whatever the hell they call it, was lined up the same way and created a built in turn (remembering, no steering holes, just a 4-line) Niagara Square (don't know name of this piece of crap): Demos into rock festival in Nova Scotia, do 1st 2 with Navy Conical (1 at night), for last Lett's says, 'here, try my square'. Canopy opens, everything looks good... I just barely move left toggle down and I am completely out flat with canopy diving off BELOW me... let up try right toggle, normal turn... examine canopy ... nothing weird, no lines tied up or broke,... nudge left toggle down and am diving again... should have chopped right there ... decide to land at back end of crowd ... do only Right turns .... lined up good, 40 ft or so up, nudge RIGHT toggle, which up till now has been just fine and canopy DIVES to LEFT ... LEFT ... WTF ??? dove right into a ditch ... PLF prevented major injury attached is Pic ... note, that is NOT a full flare, I am going the other way in a nice dive at the dirt ...I had been pointed exactly in the direction the camera is pointed and this was immediately after nudging down the RIGHT toggle about an inch I have exactly zero fond memories of Eddie Grimm and his grim gear .... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccurley 0 #7 April 27, 2009 Niagara Parchutes Cobra was Eddies version of a PSO6 Well it opened firmly, (the one I owned for a few years anyway), it was reliable and landed quite soft. Some of them did indeed open harder, but hell the guys keep jumping them so couldn't have been all that bad. Never saw a LOPO reserve with 4 line from them, mine was a Baby Cobra with three meshed in slots. Standup landing both times I used it. I also owned an Niagara Parachutes version of the Strato Cloud. Again, fine canopy with absolutly no problems. I think he also did a 5 cell Strato Star version as well. The attached is me on the white, Perry Grimm on the red & blue, and Nick fall on the blue and white. Mine and Perry's are Niagara, and I think Nick's 5 cell is as well. All of Eddies gear was well built, and I for one always got very good service from them. Eddie and Ann were great people and very proud and dedicated to what they did. I know this from first hand experiance. I knew them both well and hung out with thier son Perry quite a bit.I was on the load with Edie and Ann when Ann went in and it was one of the saddest days of my life.Watch my video Fat Women http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRWkEky8GoI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 262 #8 April 28, 2009 Interesting to hear the different perspectives on Niagara parachutes. crustySCSA6: Sounds like that bad canopy in Nova Scotia had something seriously wrong with it only on that particular jump. If it was always that bad I would hope your buddy wouldn't have lent it to you. mccurley: I think I also saw a 4 line relase Baby Cobra. But most I saw were with the meshed panels. And I got hold of a very late one (built after Eddie died I think) which was more like a Phantom than a LoPo. I'd guess that they would copy whatever style was popular at the time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #9 April 28, 2009 From most accounts, Niagara Parachutes products were extremely inconsistent. My understanding is, as a small manufacturer, Eddie would buy fabric from anyone who had it cheap, so he would have different kinds of fabric depending on what colors it was, etc. Also, I think he wasn't above making something a little smaller if he wanted to use up that last bolt of material. Canopies that should have been identical could easily react very different from other identical models. (Here I'm talking mostly squares). Still some people swore by him. This may have been because his older stuff, especially, was over-built like much early equipment. And many people were used to hard landings and hard openings, so I guess they didn't know better. Early Baby cobras were 4-line release, then I've actually seen some that had both mesh panels and 4-line release, others with just mesh. The original Labatt's team all jumped labels made by Eddie, and the white rigs with rainbow canopies for the commercial were Niagara parachutes as well.If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 561 #10 April 28, 2009 Funny Crusty, I only had good experiences with Eddie Grimm's gear. I arrived in Nova Scotia in 1979 with a second-hand Grimm copy of a Strato Star packed into a Six Pack (Grimm's copy of a Wonderhog) with a Baby Cobra. I put a few hundred jumps on that Grimm Star and it always opened. ... may have landed a bit harder than I would have liked, but I was young and skinny back in those days. Tee! Hee! In the middle of that period, I spent a season with the Skyhawks jumping a mixture of Para-Flite Cluds (with reefing lines) and Grimm Clouds (with sliders). I hated the reefing line Clouds because they were worn out. On the other hand the Grimm Clouds opened hard (with sliders). A few years later I gained weight and bought a Lite-Weight Strato-Cloud (made by Para-Flite). IT stil opened hard but I eventually learned how to roll it enough for comfortable openings at Claresholm. In conclusion, Grimm Clouds opened the same as Para-Flite Clouds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #11 May 2, 2009 In conclusion, Grimm Clouds opened the same as Para-Flite Clouds. __________________________________________________ Well, again, I would say that Eddie's canopies could be inconsistent. One cloud might open soft, another might open hard, not unusual at all. On the other hand, I've never really seen one that 'couldn't' or 'shouldn't' be jumped. My experience jumping on the old Labatt's team with all sorts of Eddie Grimm equipment was that the worst thing about them was the risers were so long I could barely reach the toggles. Trivia... When Vincent Taylor parachuted from the Upper Steel Arch Bridge into the Niagara River on Sept 5, 1927, he was rescued by L. Grimm, superintendent of the Maid of the Mist who picked him up in a rowboat and took him to the American side to avoid Cdn. police. Is L. Grimm Eddie's father or grandfather? Was youg Eddie perhaps impressed by stories of this early parachuting stunt, and decided to follow in the adventurer's footsteps? I don;t know, but it'd make a hell of a story.If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccurley 0 #12 May 2, 2009 No relation to Eddie. Eddie was an imigrant to Canada.Watch my video Fat Women http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRWkEky8GoI Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,075 #13 May 3, 2009 Hi Peter, The original StyleMaster rigs did not have a 'normal' chest strap. The adjustable diagonals ( yup, that was the 'norm' back then ) were built extra long and had fittings on their running ends ( adjustable v-ring & quick ejector ) that you then snapped up across your chest forming a 'sort of' chest strap. A lot of people looked at this setup as very 'unusual' to say the least. Later they changed the rigs to the normal 500 lb adjuster on a normal, sewn in chest strap. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
