DB Cooper

[georger 197]

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I think the flaps were at 30* when he bailed but
I will have to go back and check.

I know my thought on this is "we can't know"

But it's worth double checking. Go back and check and you'll see what I mean.

Review when Rat said he moved the flaps back to 15.

Review the ground speed implied by the 1 minute legs on the flight path.

Think about the probable winds at 10,000 ft, the indicated air speed and predicted and radar-measured ground speeds.

Sluggo has probably worked all this out, as it ties it to info in the transcript about fuel burn.

At the very least, it highlights the idea that saying the test drop "duplicated" the exact conditions of cooper's jump, is kind of an unproven theory.

We don't know when Cooper jumped. The plane configuration changed around the probable time. And we don't have the exact details of the test drop.

Tosaw did publish details of where it was done and the pilot. It was not done on V-23.

So questions about whether aloft winds were the same, are interesting. (head winds, tail winds etc)

Might not matter, but since this whole pressure bump thing is new knowledge, like splitting the atom, we shouldn't assume we know what affects what, right? Otherwise why do a test?

(edit) I had thought that Rat moved the flaps back to 15 after he "felt" that Cooper had jumped. I always wondered where this point was. It would seem to be extra info about how Rat was processing events in the cabin..i.e. doing physical things based on how he felt about Cooper's presence and stair behaviors.

I havent gone back to check but will post anyway.
I totally agree with everyrthing above. Totally, so
far as I know or understand it.

The tests were flawed. Not the same conditions.
Thats a given. I thought it was a bit abrupt of Larry
to rely so heavily on these tests.

Jerry speaks of the high winds - Shelly too. Others also. I think the Bohan issue (Contenental pilot)
is still alive and perhaps very important. Tom and I have tried to hash this out and find data. Sluggo too. Its a crucial issue that goes directly to the validity of any socalled "tests" and quite frankly
I didnt think Larry's wind stats were accurate if
Bohan is correct.

And it could be a reason for Coop landing far east
off V23 vs closer to V23 ... or if he landed nearer
the Columbia in that valley with cross winds like
Bohan claimed then almost anything is possible -
he could jump and switch back on himself., potentially?

** I think Jerry believes they were below 10k feet,
maybe ?

The other thing I can report with certainty is H
does not believe Rat ever said anything about 'seeing the lights of Portland-VCR coming
up'. His estimate of their position was based on
time and perhaps a communication from PDX,
not seeing lights from 10k feet through a thick
cloud cover. ....... that makes some sense.

[snowmman 3]

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Low pull 1: I don't believe the chute functioned I don't even think cooper Knew how to make it function.If he was able to get the chute to open his landing site would have either been a tree enima or jagged rocks he would have been dazed and not thinking clearly.He would have had no sense of direction.You are right about the chute though it would have kept him warm wet or not If he wasn't hung up in a tree or unconcious. The guy jump with a chute he knew nothing about. There's a lot of If's where this jump is concerned.

Yeah, McNally had the same problem jumping with a chute he knew nothing about. I see your point.

[georger 197]

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Well Jerry, you know the area and the conditions Cooper would have faced that night so I am giving a lot of credence to your conclusions. You are saying it is really a moot point whether or not he opened his canopy as he wouldn't have survived the night. If correct, then his remains, his gear and whatever remains of his loot are waiting to be located. I hope you find something in your searches.

I think it is likely that he opened given that all he had to do was pull the ripcord handle as he exited. Hypothermia, however, will kill you just as dead as a 120 mph terminal velocity ground impact will, it just takes a bit longer.

One thing looks pretty certain: Cooper was not dressed for the occasion. That has always puzzled me and makes me wonder if he had any idea how tough his mission would be. It doesnt take a genius to know a night jump into a rural area in the Pacific NW in November will not be a cake walk, so why wear slip on shoes and casual clothes? Others have speculated he had more appropriate garb underneath or in his case, but I see no evidence that he did.

Do you have vultures up there? In rural CA vultures will find a putrifying body pretty quickly and circle it making the location visible from a distance.

377

not to mention bears, etc...

I remember very clearly the reaction around me
at the time, with family at Vancouver. The first
reaction was something of humor that anyone
would try something like that and maybe get away, then a sober reaction 'if he landed in the back country in the weather at the time, he's a dead man'. Then we all waited to hear if he walked out
and had been caught ...... and then an endless
nothing set in.

In the meantime every Tom, Dick, and Harry was
out all over Washington and into Oregon looking
for Cooper. You could hardly turn around in the
woods without running into somebody ...

***Jerry can comment about that.

[JerryThomas 0]

The animal life what a question.Deer, Elk.Cougar.Rats Mice Poccupines Eagles Hawks Bear. Wait a minute read your Encyclopedia on the state of washington. I think it might even tell you about Big foot This animal is protected in skamainia county. Realy

[georger 197]

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for $1000/day plus airfare and other expenses, I will dress as Cooper did, and you can tie my arms and legs up to simulate injuries, and drop me off anywhere you want on 11/24/2009, in WA or OR.
(you can blindfold me)

You can hose me down first if you want.

I'll be back posting within 3 days.
If I don't return, you get your money back.
Money has to be deposited in escrow beforehand.

You can give me a wet chute or not, whatever you like.
If you want to suspend me from a tree, that's okay too.

and you agree to age progression first? (might
leave some lasting effects).

[snowmman 3]

georger said:

"Its a crucial issue that goes directly to the validity of any socalled "tests" and quite frankly
I didnt think Larry's wind stats were accurate if
Bohan is correct."

We know the surface wind and direction at PDX on 11/24/71 from historical records. Larry said he had records but they were unreadable when he posted them.

I've been reporting on winds aloft and surface at PDX occasionally this winter, because it provides a reasonable sampling of what winds aloft might have been on 11/24/71, if the surface conditions were similar.

That's my theory. Basically because the wind rose data I posted, from a 10 year period, showed a lot of repeatability. So I'm thinking wind behaviors in the air during storms, might be repeatable around PDX (if you have matching surface conditions)

At the very least, someone should be able to reconcile air speed, with land speed given the flight path. I don't think that's been done. It would validate winds aloft.

[snowmman 3]

"You could hardly turn around in the
woods without running into somebody ... "

If a lot of searchers were searching in areas where Cooper landed and wouldn't be able to extract himself from, then it's likely some number of the searchers died in trying to get back out.

Did any? If not, why not? What did they have that Cooper didn't?

[snowmman 3]

Jerry:

what's the farthest you've gone in the woods in a line from your car, without hitting a road (logging or otherwise) while searching for cooper?

Have you gone a couple days? like 30-40 miles?

If you've only gone a day or two out from a road where you left your car, why are you so certain someone couldn't repeat what you did as a path out?

I'm not talking about Cooper because I don't think he jumped in the woods.

I'm trying to gather info for this wager I'm running. I've got certain estimates, but more info is always better.

[JerryThomas 0]

Snowmman some searchers actuallly did get lost but others found them.To my knowledge no searchers died.However even today deer hunters hikers are constantly geting lost Ive helped many lost hikers and hunters find they way out of the woods.

[JerryThomas 0]

To move through this terain with any speed at all is very hard to do in alot of cases 3 miles a day is doing good unless your on a road or trail Ive hiked in 10 or more miles many times on 2 wk trips but you must remember I was searching for the unusual.

[snowmman 3]

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Snowmman some searchers actuallly did get lost but others found them.To my knowledge no searchers died.However even today deer hunters hikers are constantly geting lost Ive helped many lost hikers and hunters find they way out of the woods.

That's odd. You're saying in the areas you search, it's likely to run into other people? I would think it's so remote that if you get lost you die, like Cooper. Seems overpopulated. If there are hikers and hunters, then it's not far from roads. Most of them are one-day-trippers.

I guess I'm missing the point. Are these people superior to Cooper? In what way? I guess we really don't know much about Cooper's physical condition. On average most male adults nowadays are pretty unfit i.e. fat. Worse than the '70s. In comparison to the average 45 year old male, Cooper may have been more fit, since he wasn't overweight.

I believe most of the searchers would fall on the poor side of physical fitness. (you can look at the video of the army searchers and see they didn't go far into the woods).

Oh reminds me. There are two descriptions of Cooper's footwear. Which do you believe and why? Which did Himmelsbach believe?

Oh yeah: And when you're walking up and down these hills, what kind of clothing are you wearing?

How fit are you? What do you run a mile in?

(edit) I ask because I've read reports of a fair number of hunters dying out in the woods from heart attacks. Does that happen much out there?

[JerryThomas 0]

Georger Im going to be in vancouver most of next week and I will have time to look for some of your relatives friends.I'll also pick up that map and get you a copy of it if you still want a copy or I can loan it to you.

[snowmman 3]

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To move through this terain with any speed at all is very hard to do in alot of cases 3 miles a day is doing good unless your on a road or trail Ive hiked in 10 or more miles many times on 2 wk trips but you must remember I was searching for the unusual.

10 miles in a day is doable in any terrain by someone reasonably fit, in most any conditions (except deep powder snow).

Are you saying you don't think Cooper could have done 10 miles?

[JerryThomas 0]

As for me runing into people being lost.Why do you think they were lost they had gotten themselfs to far into unfamiliar teritory.As for being physicaly fit is concerned I'm a fat old man and still move around pretty good in the woods of course I move slow but you have to do that when your looking for things.

[snowmman 3]

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As for me runing into people being lost.Why do you think they were lost they had gotten themselfs to far into unfamiliar teritory.

well, if they were physically there, even if they didn't know where they were, then they were able to physically move thru the terrain.

whatever.

It sounds like you're confident of your theories. Good luck!

[SchlitznGrins 0]

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It is my opinion the canopy never opened.The conditions in which he jumped was very hostile.I believe he had no jump experience and that he became disoriented as soon as he exited the aircraft. The envirorment in which he would have landed is exstremely harsh terain. Most of the time travel in this area is only possible down the center of a stream.Does anyone remember the guy I think his name was kim that got stranded on a logging road in oregon with his family and tried to walk out by way of a creek and died.Well the area they found his body in was mild compared to the terain cooper would have had to negotiate.Even if he had landed he didn't have any shoes.It highly unlikely that he would have landed safely in that thick of a forrest.Hyperthermia would have been his main enemy and on the ground at night in that dense of a forest you can't even see your hand in front of your face" Believe me I know".If he had the ability to make a fire he probably would have used the parachute, dry tendor would have been hard to find .In a survival situation human nature takes over and you just want to live so if he survived the jump he probly would have tried to start a fire by using part of the parachute and some one would have spoted this fire.He probably would have made no atempt to conceal the fire.These are just a few of the reasons I have for believing the man parished that nite. If any of you could spend 5 minutes out in this area you will with out a doubt realize this guys chances for survival was none.

I believe that if Cooper was from Canada or the upper Midwest he would have no trouble in regards to the weather. Georger can probably attest to that living in Iowa. Now, if he was a SoCal guy, and was not used to harsh tempatures it is a different story. He may have also had a lot of experience in rough terrian if he was Military. Plus, there is a whole lot of incentive to live with close to 200K on your person. Now, if he lost the money on the way down, he may have been much more apt to 'Give up the fight'.

[SchlitznGrins 0]

There are 4247 GeoCaches hidden in Zip Code 98660. That is a lot of foot traffic covering all sorts of areas within the area of the Money find. I know around here there are some Caches hidden in some VERY remote areas. Maybe Jerry could set up a 'Cooper Cache' with a bunch of background info on the case. I think Sluggo is pretty big into GeoCaching. Imagine the possibilities! A whole network of folks looking for clues while GeoCaching the remote areas.

[snowmman 3]

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There are 4247 GeoCaches hidden in Zip Code 98660. That is a lot of foot traffic covering all sorts of areas within the area of the Money find. I know around here there are some Caches hidden in some VERY remote areas. Maybe Jerry could set up a 'Cooper Cache' with a bunch of background info on the case. I think Sluggo is pretty big into GeoCaching. Imagine the possibilities! A whole network of folks looking for clues while GeoCaching the remote areas.

that's a cool idea. Haven't people extended it so you have to do a multi-step adventure or something...i.e. you have to get the one clue to find out where the next one is, etc?

But if people, gasp, actually went into the woods where Cooper might have been, wouldn't they die? My take from the experts here on the forum is that they would. Especially if it got down to 40 degrees. Then they would all die.

Is the only thing that saves people from dying in the woods a GPS? No wonder the world is overpopulated. GPS was a worse invention that penicillin!

[SchlitznGrins 0]

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There are 4247 GeoCaches hidden in Zip Code 98660. That is a lot of foot traffic covering all sorts of areas within the area of the Money find. I know around here there are some Caches hidden in some VERY remote areas. Maybe Jerry could set up a 'Cooper Cache' with a bunch of background info on the case. I think Sluggo is pretty big into GeoCaching. Imagine the possibilities! A whole network of folks looking for clues while GeoCaching the remote areas.

that's a cool idea. Haven't people extended it so you have to do a multi-step adventure or something...i.e. you have to get the one clue to find out where the next one is, etc?

But if people, gasp, actually went into the woods where Cooper might have been, wouldn't they die? My take from the experts here on the forum is that they would. Especially if it got down to 40 degrees. Then they would all die.

Is the only thing that saves people from dying in the woods a GPS? No wonder the world is overpopulated. GPS was a worse invention that penicillin!

Yeah, they have Multi-caches. The first cache could be located at Tena Bar and then the others could cover the so called 'Hot Spots' Jerry thinks the remains could be located. A lot of the GeoCachers I know are pretty hardcore so they would leave no stone unturned in their search.

377, do the Lavs in a 727 have any 'Hiding spots'? Maybe coop stashed a few survival items in there before he brought attention to himself. Then during his extended stay in the john he was able to gear up a little better than anyone thinks.

[snowmman 3]

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377, do the Lavs in a 727 have any 'Hiding spots'? Maybe coop stashed a few survival items in there before he brought attention to himself. Then during his extended stay in the john he was able to gear up a little better than anyone thinks.

He had a raincoat.
He had flares.
He had a knife.

But you can't survive in the woods with that. You need a GPS. and a big ass 4x4 to drive you down the road to where you're going to walk in. Preferably the 4x4 has bumper stickers like mine that says "Skydive Eugene!"

[snowmman 3]

I was looking at the web page sluggo put up for Jerry Thomas and there's a typo.

It says
"sometimes going months at a time searching for clues under the tall trees."

There is no way Jerry Thomas "went for months" without resupply searching for clues. "Sometimes" implies it happened more than once.

If there was any case where Jerry was camped out for months, I'd like to hear the details. Jerry did you camp in one spot? Did you move while you were out for months?

Is this just horseshit? If so, is it from Sluggo or from you?

Make me eat my words. I'd like to hear the details. I believe it's bullshit because so far, you're just regurgitating the Himmelsbach story.

[Orange1 0]

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Sluggo's site was referenced by a newspaper blogger in South Africa today.

The blogger is a deputy-editor of the Sunday Times Travel & Food.

The Sunday Times is a popular South African Sunday newspaper. It has an audited circulation of 504,000 and a weekly readership of 3.2 million, making it the largest weekly newspaper in South Africa.

The blog appears to be connected to the site the paper owns:

http://blogs.thetimes.co.za/wanderer/2009/02/26/boeings-sexiest-airliner-in-hijack-escape-drama/

An overview of the hijack with this reference:

"Thanks to “Sluggo” for this last piece of information from his extensive and detailed “Norjak” website."

Orange1 continues to deny direct involvement in the case, although the coincidences continue to pile up.

LOL - that is interesting! fwiw I don't know Paul Ash, though I do know one full-time and one part-time journalist for the Sunday Times pretty well. AFAIK, neither of them has any idea of my interest in this forum though obviously both know I am a skydiver.

Coincidences aside, though, Snow are you aware that dz.com is actually started and run by ... a South African. Yes that's right - despite the assumption by many that it is fully American

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[JerryThomas 0]

Snowmman A simple question requires a simple answer (your question on the woods) Sluggo is just quoting what I said. I had Base camp sites in the woods and would move the site when I finished searching a particular area.What is meant by staying in the woods for months at a time is that I wouldn't go home. From 1989 to 1995 my home was in eastern washington. 200mi away so I would remain in the woods only leaving long enough to go to the nearest store for supplies .I would sometimes return to my base camp and find things stolen but that was something I had to except.Ive lost riffles supplies a car equipment ECT. So you see you can stay in the woods for months at a time. I don't mean to imply that I didn't go home for years I did. Sometimes my brother would come looking for me and bring me supplies. Sometimes friend's would mostly people didn't get to woried about me unless I went 3mos or more with out contacting them.

[nitrochute 2]

i am curious. how many hikers and hunters have been in the search area over the last 37+ years??
it would seem that it would be likely that over all that time ,with all those people, that somebody would have found something?

[JerryThomas 0]

There have been thousands in that area.But without a untrained eye people have a tendency to overlook things.Have you ever been looking for something and couldn't find it then ga back hours or days later only to find what you were looking for in a place you had already looked.