The Avenger

[Erroll 49]

I was watching the History channel program on the Avenger and it's role in the Pacific during WW2 last night. Fascinating program- fascinating airplane.

If one were to take away the rear gunner's turret, that aircraft would look almost exactly like the Harvard which was the South African Air Force's primary trainer for many years after the war. Is it the same plane?

There are still several flying Harvards in SA and it is not unusual for me to hear those very distinctive engines early on a Sunday morning as two or three Harvards fly over my house in close formation.

[SkydiveJack 1]

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If one were to take away the rear gunner's turret, that aircraft would look almost exactly like the Harvard which was the South African Air Force's primary trainer for many years after the war. Is it the same plane?

No, the Harvard, also known as the T-6 or SNJ, is a completely different aircraft than the Avenger. The Avenger was a US Navy carrier based combat aircraft. The T-6/Harvard is a land based aircraft that was primarily used as a trainer by the US and Commonwealth Air Forces during WWII and after. Various countries and services had different names and designations for what was pretty much the same aircraft.

A very few were built with wing mounted machine guns and equipped to carry small bombs. I believe these weapons were for training purposes but a few of them were actually used in anger during some small conflicts, maybe in South America.

[Zing 2]

I couldn't find a picture of both airplanes side-by-side, but here is a Grumman Avenger (blue) and a North American RCAF T-6 variant.
The Avenger is a much larger airplane and other than both aircraft are taildraggers, both are powered by radial engines, though not the same engine, and the birdcage canopies look somewhat alike, the similiarities just about end there.

Zing Lurks

[Erroll 49]

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... the similiarities just about end there.

Indeed.
Another big (and obvious ) difference is where the wings are mounted - mid fuselage vs low-wing.

Cheers guys.

[piper17 1]

The USAF used the T-6 as a FAC during the Korean War. It had marking rockets, I believe.

The US Navy referred to this aircraft by North American as an SNJ.

"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling

[pilotdave 0]

An Avenger weighs more than three T-6s. Pretty amazing size difference for two planes that look somewhat similar.

Dave

[riggerrob 558]

(retired) American President George Bush did his first jump from a TBM Avenger (circa 1944). His excuse was angry Japanese shooting him down.
He never claimed to have jumped from an SNJ (United States Navy version of North American T-6), but he probably flew an SNJ as a student pilot.

George Bush resumed parachuting after retiring from the Presidency of the United States. GB was the key-note speaker at the Parachute Industry Symposium in 1997. A World War surplus seat type parachute was presented to him, for display in the Presidential library.
The next thing we knew, PIA members were scrambling to donate equipment for htis high-profile jump. A few months later, all the equipment: Telesis harness/container, big Raven reserve, FXC 12000M, Student Cypres and a Man-of-War main canopy all landed in my lap. Over the next week, I inspected, assembled and packed the rig and sent it to Yuma, Arizona.
Fortunately, the next week included a "slow news day" and full-color photos of George Bush's colorful Manta main canopy were printed on the front page of most American newspapers.

[Erroll 49]

Just out of curiousity, should one read anything about American pilots in the two white arrows on the Avenger in the picture I posted earlier?

[Zing 2]

Well ... they are Navy pilots after all.

Zing Lurks

[piper17 1]

Naval "Aviators"....while "pilots" guide ships into and out of ports.

"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

The white arrows on the Avenger you posted a picture of indicated which carrier the aircraft was assigned to... I think. If I can find a guide to USN aircraft markings from WW2, I'll post it for you.


OBTW, the Avenger was a 3 place aircraft, if I recall correctly. Something like, Pilot, Gunner, Radioman/Navigator. When George Bush Sr. bailed out of his during an attack on Chi Chi Jima during WW2, he got out, obviously, but his squadron mates also reported seeing a second chute. To this day it is unknown wheter the second was his Gunner or Radioman. George Bush wound up in his raft, alone, off of Chi Chi Jima with Japanese coming out in a boat (or boats ?) to capture him, but his squadron mates managed to drive them off with repeated strafing runs until he drifed further away from the island or night fell (don't recall specifically which). George Bush received the Distinguished Flying Cross (DFC) for pressing home the attack run he was on vs. the Japanese on Chi Chi Jima and delivering his bombs after his aircraft was hit by Japanese antiaircraft fire and before un-assing himself from the aircraft. All told something like 7 or 8 other Navy and Marine aviators that had to bail out of their aircraft during attacks on Chi Chi Jima were captured by the Japanese, held as POWs on the island and all were eventually executed by the Japanese prior to their surrender. If George Bush had been captured by the Japanese, he undoubtely would also have been executed OR if he hadn't been found and picked up by a U.S. submarine (the USS Finback, I think), he likely would have died while adrift at sea, but he survived all of that to eventually become the 41st President of the United States of America.

There is a brief account of George Bush and his exerience bailing out of an Avenger in the book Flyboys.

[Erroll 49]

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The white arrows on the Avenger you posted a picture of indicated which carrier the aircraft was assigned to... I think. If I can find a guide to USN aircraft markings from WW2, I'll post it for you.

Very interesting. I did some research and found several references to the USS Bunker Hill and it's aircraft with the white arrows. Attached is a (small) picture of a model of a Corsair which flew from USS Bunker Hill, displaying the markings.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Erroll,
I tried to find it on the web earlier... while goofing off at work... ... but couldn't, so, I had to wait to look it up in a reference I knew I had at home.

Anyway, you got it right. The "long arrow" depicted on the aircraft in the pics you posted would indicate that the aircraft was from the USS Bunkerhill (CV-17). There was also a similar "short arrow" that would indicate aircraft from the USS Bennington (CV-20). There are many other markings which would inidicate aircraft from other varrious aircraft carriers during WW2, but I wasn't able to find a reference on the web that I could post / link to show y'all all of them.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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Well ... they are Navy pilots after all.

Yeah, yeah, what ever, Zing. Ya know what, if it were easy, we'd let the Air Farce... I mean... Air Force do it.

[Zing 2]

Actually, I meant to say, "they are naval fliers after all," which is a phrase I used to hear from Tom Wells. Tom and his wife Jo, took over running Coolidge after Darth and his wife died.
Tom was a retired naval aviator and had some great stories about his days as a warrant officer/pilot ferrying airplanes all over the place.

Zing Lurks

[badbob 0]

Well, there was a lot Tom said, and Jo's chicken was the ultimate Sunday dinner. In the end though you have understand that as skydiving moved from the Gulch (Casa Grande and the Hells Angeles Nmark coversion Harpoon) to Coolidge (Beech 18s), and Darth and Mary died with Tom and Jo seeing them to other side, the world changed and skydiving, black death and all, became somewhat respectable. It was the turning point in the universe of skydiving as the providence of the past met the future. And as I would scream before every lift "all right boys and girls Blue Sky! to which the reply would always be Black Death!" Go forbid we another saftey meeting...