Would you jump this

[howardwhite 5]

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It looks like the original Pioneer 23' tri-con. I had one that was identical to the one shown, used it twice with no problems...

My first reserve ride, in 1967, was on a tri-con. If memory serves, I stood it up in front of a "target tour" group of whuffos on their way to the Bowl at Orange to watch skydivers land close up and personal.
HW

[highspeeddirt 0]

NOT a KXX. it is a PIONEER TRI CONICAL,which preceeded the kxx by a good 10-15 years. By the way, the seller is Dick Paliello who used to own Continental Air sports in Xenia ohio.

[airtwardo 6]

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It looks like the original Pioneer 23' tri-con. I had one that was identical to the one shown, used it twice with no problems...

My first reserve ride, in 1967, was on a tri-con. If memory serves, I stood it up in front of a "target tour" group of whuffos on their way to the Bowl at Orange to watch skydivers land close up and personal.
HW

I still have mine...2nd generation with the reinforcement bands.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[highspeeddirt 0]

actually what caused the problem with the tricon was its low profile. when a round canopy opens , it will "pancake'' or flatten out as the air crashing into the low pressure area above the canopy suddenly meets the open parachute. tri cons because of their low profile were more prone to inverting at this stage of opening than other canopies (regular conicals are more resistant because they have a higher profile).

[piper17 1]

Not being an engineer, I won't get into a technical discussion. Maybe the low profile was more prone to inversion or "rebound" malfunctions. Another contributor to inversions, I believe, was the use of a much lower porosity fabric. Look at the net-extended skirt on the newer T-10 canopies that virtually eliminated inversions.

Whatever the cause, the problem was solved by the use of the Reuter Wrap and, later, the diaper.

"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling

[stratostar 5]

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Whatever the cause, the problem was solved by the use of the Reuter Wrap and, later, the diaper.

Are you saying you would jump a 23ft tri con with a diaper installed on it in a wart or a pig?

Just wondering how many oldtimers if you still able to use "that stuff" would use this canopy with a diaper installed? I have been taking a unoffical poll and so far the poll is split 50-50.

I'm NOT asking if anyone thinks using old stuff is a good idea, just would you deploy it without fear?

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi hiighspeed,

Back in 'the day' Steve Snyder told me that he could not understand how the Tri-Con ever made it through the Strength Test req'ment of the TSO.

His concern was the flat profile; he said that the design/geometry of the canopy loaded this area of fabric way too high for it to hold together upon a 'firm' opening.

A 'normal' conical canopy, with the high profile, has a very low fabric loading because of the angle of the material to the onrushing air.

JerryBaumchen

[piper17 1]

I wasn't there for the 23' Tri Con TSO testing, but we had no problems making it with the K-series of canopies. I'm trying to remember if the Super 22 series was a tri-con design and I think it was. We made both low-speed and standard categories with them. With the K-series, I don't remember if we bothered with standard category as, by then, the market realized it was overkill for skydiving purposes.

Steve was certainly entitled to his opinions - just as all are and skydivers and aviators certainly have strong opinions - but Pioneer had their stuff together TSO testing and documented via film and video (when it became available) TSO testing.

\When I was with Pioneer, we used Orange, MA, Eustis, and Deland for TSO testing and it was available for all to see...including some "interesting" events.

"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling

[piper17 1]

I'd have no problems jumping the tri-con canopies as a main or reserve today. I never owned a 23' (had a Navy Conical before joining Pioneer in '78) I did use the Super 22 and K-XX reserves when my main 'functioned with excellent results.

I'd would have to go back to my old wind limits as they certainly don't have the drive of modern square reserves.

I'd prefer the standard diaper deployment system as it was superior to the Reuter Wrap, in my opinion. Pioneer had no reluctance to go to the diaper when it came along.

"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi Jim,

Not to beat a dead horse:

Back, many years ago, when Dan Poynter was the chairman of the committee charged with writing a new TSO standard he asked me if I would like to be a part of it.

I, of course, immediately said YES; and spent the next 20 yrs or so on that committee.

My first submittal to the committee included a recommendation to changing the Strength Test req'ment that the very same sample of product must be used for all three Strength Test drops. This recommendation was accepted by the committee and that req'ment has remained in all versions of the TSO standard to this date.

My concern then was that the TSO C23(b) req'ment of three Strength Test drops did not require that the same sample be used. This lead me to believe that it would be possible to develop a product that would not take subsequent loadings, i.e., just make up three canopies ( or whatever product you were testing ) and run each one through one of the test drops only, the sample(s) would pass the testing and then the product could be put on the market. I felt that this could lead to a product(s) that could be weakened during a high speed opening but not to the extent that a field rigger could find that weakening during normal I & R.

If I remember correctly, Sandy Reid discovered this situation when he was doing the Strength Test drops for his Talon harness & container. He once told me that [ using canopies certificated under TSO C23(b) ] often after the 2nd drop test he could see some weakening and then failure on the 3rd drop test; occasionally he saw the weakening after the 1st drop test and failure during the 2nd drop test; I understood that he was referring to round canopies.

IMO, by requiring that the same sample be subjected to all three Strength Test drops you build redundancy into the product. I believe that this results in a higher level of safety to the end user.

Just a bit of history & trivia for those that might be interested,

JerryBaumchen

[MasterRigger 0]

It looks like the original Pioneer 23' tri-con.

You're right! by the way.. It is a Pioneer 23' Tri-Conical!

The eBay Seller!

[MasterRigger 0]

NOT a KXX. it is a PIONEER TRI CONICAL,which preceeded the kxx by a good 10-15 years. By the way, the seller is Dick Paliello who used to own Continental Air sports in Xenia ohio.


You're right on both counts.. The spelling on the last name however gives everyone a fit ..
Dick Paoliello!

[airtwardo 6]

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I was browsing ebay and lookie what I found for sale a "New" Strato Flyer

http://cgi.ebay.com/Sport-Parachute-Ram-Air-Strato-Flyer-New_W0QQitemZ130152851272QQihZ003QQcategoryZ106980QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Okay...but would ya jump this?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[piper17 1]

I'm not arguing any of that.

When I was doing test drops and test jumps on new Pioneer prototype reserves, we usually had only one or two examples since we wouldn't have gone into production without the completion of the TSO tests. I would guess that most or all manufacturers would have followed a similar path. No reputable (that's the operative word here) manufacturer would want to cheat on TSO testing. Litigation being what it is in this country, it would probably come back to haunt them. Manufacturers have (and had) enough concerns with jumpers screwing up with a perfectly sound, safe canopy and still suing. I could relate a few examples of that, including a USAF senior NCO with a large, docile square, but I won't in this venue.

I also seem to remember more like ten strenth and opening tests but I'm going back about thirty years so things are a little fuzzy.

"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling

[brokenwing 1]

i got one back in late 70s (main not the reserve -- yea was one of those that paid to do test jumping prior to snyder coming out with it as a reserve -- even got one of those fancy belts he sent along with each purchase).

loved every jump on it back then -- but i was like 145lb back then

first few jumps didnt have the side winglets/stabilizers on -- handled better after

worst thing was those huge knots used on the cascade for the steering lines


still have both at home -- belt & canopy