D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking

[airtwardo 6]

Oh, by the way, I am still not DB Cooper.

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Then what's with the ~N467US~ tattoo ?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[quade 3]

You needed a "tip" to find that?

It's easily googleable and one of the first things I came across when looking for D.B. Cooper stuff.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Ckret 0]

I found the cover sheets to the lab reports which summarize the findings. I also found the interviews of the Ingram family with regard to the recovery. I found the following:

The money was not stuck together with muck.

The money was found under just a few inches of sand.

They were still bundled with rubber bands, however, the bands crumbled to the touch when they picked them up.

The Ingrams took the money to their house and laid it out to dry.

The only thing in the lab report was that the money was consistent with being submerged in water and that sand recovered off the money was consistent with silt from the Columbia.

From what I have read in the files the best theory I can come up with is that Cooper tied the money bag into a tight enough bundle that it stayed sealed for several years.

As time passed the bag was pushed by the elements into a creek or feeder stream, finally into a high velocity creek that eventually pushed it into a tributary that feeds into the Columbia.

Once in the Columbia the bag bounces along the bottom, snaging every now and then. Sometime in late 78 or early 79 the bag breaks open near Tina's Bar and a few bundles wash up and are covered buy the sand.

[Orange1 0]

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You needed a "tip" to find that?

It's easily googleable and one of the first things I came across when looking for D.B. Cooper stuff.

well, the 'tip' was to include FBI in the search term, yes it is easy to find but to my knowledge the link has not yet been posted in this thread... and i thought it might be of interest. not everyone goes onto google themselves.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[skyjack71 0]

Caution: FBI files Loaded with errors...dates are wrong and heavens knows what else. They are only as reliable as the person who puts them into the file.
That AIN't saying much anymore...reliability and accountability...not part of a job description anymore.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Orange1 0]

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They are only as reliable as the person who puts them into the file.

well... some of them are copies of memos etc with the original dates on and have been being added to the files ever since Norjak took place... so are you implying that reliability etc have been a problem at the FBI for the past three and half decades? what about all the other cases they have managed to solve?

i've only skimmed the DBCooper ones so far...will make up my mind when i have had time to look at all of it as it is a LOT of stuff... but have also had a lot of fun looking at all the other stuff there under FOIA some of it is really interesting stuff!

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[skyjack71 0]

What happened to our avatars? You have one and all I have is an X in a box! Very confusing.

Now to the subject: Since agent Carr is so busy doing interviews let us talk about what is not being done - NOTE CARR IS NOT MENTIONING THE SMOKE BUTTS! They don't want the general public to know they lost evidence.


1. There has been NO mention of the raincoat. Are they now going to say it doen't exist?

2. Did they test the cords where Cooper would have held them to cut them - if so did that DNA match the DNA from the tie?

3. Have they even given a thought to the knife that cut the cords?

4. What about DNA from the parts of the chute that he would have to touch to open it in order to access the cords.

5. Cooper did NOT walk out that stairwell - Would someone who knows the plane please explain that to Carr. We know that there would have been a change in the cabin pressure when the stair-well was lowered and then a bump of some sort when he let go of the stair-well. Would the aft-stairs have had a rebound when he let go?

6. WHY are they using only the old unreliable composite? It seems like they do not really want to know who Cooper was.

. While Carr has been busy with the TV and Newspapers I have been busy with the facts at hand. The truth has now been recorded on film and tape to be used in the event that I am not around when the time comes.

Two full days! I also included things that I do not talk about here or elsewhere - events and clues that could cause me a lot of trouble if I ever to took them public. Two days and still only a fraction of what needs to be recorded - but, I have to give up someday.
Maybe the day I die.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Thank you Ckret!

I do have one final question... am I safe to assume that there was no bundle of 300 ($6,000)? When I spoke of bricks earlier, I meant taking several bundles and rubberbanding them all together.

If so, then obviously we have more than one bundle found together.

A "few" inches is quite a bit different than 6-8 inches. I'd say 2-4 inches is a "few" inches.

Can waterlogged bills at the bottom of a river find a way to float to the surface? We know that damp or dry bills CAN float. Waterlogged, I'm not so sure about... I used to work at a water park somewhere in the NW, and when I'd clean the pools in the morning, I'd often find a 5, 10, or even 20 in the pool. These bills were NEVER floating, they were ALWAYS at the bottom.

I'm not an expert at fluid dynamics of the Columbia river, but my mind would tell me if the bills were at the bottom of the river, it would take a large upward draft to bring items already on the bottom up to the surface. A severe change in depth would do this, but it would have to be a change in depth all the way across the river, or the items would just go around the obstacle. This is path of least resistance.

Let's suppose for a moment that right where the money was found, there was a shallow spot in the river... am I safe to assume that there was no bundle of 300 ($6,000)? In other words, we're talking multiple bundles all found together.

Yes?

[Ckret 0]

There were multiple bundles recovered under 3 to 6 inches of sand, just at the waters edge (according to the Ingrams) no bricks of money. I found reference to four bundles, of which the rubber bands were still around them, there were 290 20's. I can't imagine the bundles broke from the bag and entered the river at some other location and then multiple bundles land at the same beach several miles down stream. Once in the flow of the river there would be nothing to keep the bundles together to allow several of them to land at the same beach.

What I think that means is the bag had to have landed at the beach with all of the money inside. While on the beach or just at the waters edge the bag finally snagged something that broke it open.

Once open, several bundles fell from the bag and stayed on the beach. Due to the flow of water, the bag, along with the rest of the money drifted off in the Columbia.

[skyjack71 0]

[reply
wont' change the fact that the fBI closed the case on Duane, his DNA doesn't match, his prints don't match, he can't be placed in Oregon, he can't be placed in a harness, and Florence Schaffner said he isnt' Cooper. I guess, now, he is just one of 1,000 suspects, hoping to be the man.

But, the real Cooper, doesn't want the press, or the jail time, or his assets taken away.

Folks this post was made by a member of this group several months ago. Who is this person that would state these things when I nor the general population knew anything about Duane's DNA not matching the supposed DNA that was retrieved?? How could this person know if Florence had seen a picture of Duane???

The FBI needs to check this individual out? What do you think?

Duane's prints nor DNA matched, but the FBI has ignored my plea regarding my request into the prints - as I have stated before (other prisoners in Jefferson managed to change their prints in the system of a corrupt prison and got away). Duane's prints need to be cross checked with his prints from the other prisons he resided in.

How does this person who made the statement about the DNA know that it didn't match???? - no one but the FBI knew when he made that statement in Sept.

As for Florence - I have never shown her a picture and the only one I know that was shown to her was e-mailed to a cell phone and she viewed it as a phone pic with no explanation of his age or the fact that most of the photos of Duane from the era of the skyjacking have been destroyed. This was the NY magazine writer. Anything else she may have been shown - I would not have a clue as to what pic was shown or what explanation was made regarding the pic.

I was told she said he was "too Old". Obviously no explanation of age was given to her as Coffelt who she ID'ed was older than Duane.

FBI are you listening?

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Orange1 0]

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The FBI needs to check this individual out? What do you think?

"This individual", I believe, is someone who just wants to know who DB Cooper is...and I wouldn't be surprised if he has already come into contact with the FBI but not as a suspect. All speculation on my part of course but I have my reasons for thinking so

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

Thank you Ckret.

I think your idea of the money bag winding up at the site does explain the bundle.

I also think it's possible for several bundles to wash up within the same square foot naturally if a "pool" was created from trapped waterflow.... but I still would think it next to impossible to have several bundles stacked unless they were already stacked when deposited.

There are other explainations that might fit, including my original idea of decomposing compression... if several bundles were already sticking to each other and only had to travel for a few minutes/miles, then that would also be consistent, in my opinion.

What I like Ckret is that we're all able to put the myths to rest because you're giving us facts. We cannot trust what the news tells us.

Along those lines, Orange posted several PDF's, and I browsed through one of them and happened to notice several reports of Cooper having both a attache case and a paper sack. I've never heard of Cooper having a paper sack with him, is this true or is this more false reports?

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

My guess... the person was posting their derived conclusions to support their argument that skyjack71 had no evidence. No prints? No DNA? Unless the person knows what they're talking about, then maybe. Otherwise I see it as a strawman argument based only on their imagination of what the evidence is.

All of us don't know anything about either the prints that were found, where they found, where they weren't found, or the DNA, how it was derived, where it was obtained, how the comparison was made, and most importantly to what degree we can rely upon either identification method.

Let's face it, neither the finger prints nor the DNA has been explained, at all. As you can see regarding only the money that was found 17.5 years ago, there was a lot of misinformation and the assumptions of the FBI at the time simply didn't account for the facts, nor were the theories explained adequately for an observer to reach the same conclusion.

Here's what I know about Cooper & his awareness of avoiding capture:
1. He asked for all the notes back, presumably to prevent handwriting or fingerprint analysis.
2. He wore sunglasses during the later portions of the flight, presumably to make identification more difficult.

Cooper at least thought it through this far. If he was that meticulous with the handwritten notes, then to what degree can we assume he was meticulous with his prints?
Were Cooper's prints found on the drinking glass? Were any? Or were they wiped clean before he left the plane? Were there prints on his armrest? Were there prints on the wheel that lowers the stairs?

My guess would be that Cooper wore gloves during his escape and that he wiped off the hard surfaces he may have touched. In other words, most likely Cooper left zero prints.

Ckret might be able to shed some light on this.

Regarding DNA, the cigarettes would certainly have DNA. The rim of the drinking glass would have DNA.

For the reasons outlined above, I find the tie quite perplexing. For someone who was meticulous about the notes, he just discards the tie and leaves it behind on accident? (I can actually believe this if he was caught up in the moment)... what other mistakes did Cooper make?

OR, was the tie purposely placed there?

I don't know the answer, do you?

Ckret, did they ever obtain finger prints off the clip or the tie clasp?

As for Florence Shaffner, seeing a small picture on a cell phone from a person who wants to show that Kenneth Christiansen was Cooper probably isn't the best measurement of accuracy. If you want to compare Duane to the Composite (the best description we have of Cooper), then you can do it yourself. The FRS (facial recognition software) already demonstrated Duane as the best match of everyone its database.

As for age differences of photos, the best way to avoid a pitfall is to: show a photo taken at the same time as the crime, or show a photo taken a few years before the crime. People age more at the end of their life than they do mid-life. I would never use an aged photo for comparison purposes, I'd use (If I'm going to error in some way) a younger photo.

For example, see the photo of Duane taken in the early 1960s (1962??) and the 1971 composite of Cooper. I used the most detailed composite instead of the least detailed (which is also what people should do when comparing to composite photos).

Further, I'm not sure I'd trust Florence or Tina 36 years after the fact. You would need a sequence of photos, maybe even video of the person to really get an idea if they can accurately finger someone.

And the best way to do a photo line-up?? Well, let's just say that we don't show up with one suspect and ask if its that suspect. You need suspects who all resemble the composite, and none of the pictures should have been shown to the witness previously. You then ask if any of them are the suspect.

In the history of criminal investigations, poor photo line-ups have fingered the wrong suspect NUMEROUS times, sometimes leading to wrongful convictions. Ckret can back me up on this one.

[Orange1 0]

leaving the tie in an era before DNA, if you had wiped the tie-pin of fingerprints, may not have been the error you assume?

Ckret, you stated at some time that christiansen was not the man - has there been a DNA check done on that too or was the rejection of him as suspect based on other factors? he still has one huge advantage as a suspect over weber imho - he knew how to jump out a plane (and how to do it with a heavy load in bad conditions).

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

I'd say anyone, let alone a suspect, who can be shown to have jumped from planes professionally or recreationally would have that "advantage" over Weber.

Although, the (demo) front pack that Cooper jumped with... does this support military, expert, or a novice jumper? Or is the front chute consistent with all of the above?

As for the tie, of course the most they could ever get off of it with regards to a fingerprint would be a partial, since both the clip & clasp would be fairly narrow.

I'm also bewildered as to why Cooper removed it, if he actually did remove it... afterall, it was a clip on. If he didn't want to jump with it on, then why did he wear it in the first place? Another question, does loosening your collar make that much difference when strapping up your gear? I'm also presuming he had a raincoat on and he strapped up his gear over the top of it. If he actually removed this tie, why did he remove this tie?

I'd love to hear what the sky diving community would say about this.

[Ckret 0]

It was a small paper sack he brought on the plane with him, unknown contents.

[Ckret 0]

The clasp is to small to obtain prints.

Christiansen was dismissed because the only part of his physical description that matches Coopers is that he is male. There were other items as well, one of them was that he was a Northwest flight attendant. It does not fit (for me) that a NW stew would hijack a flight associated in his area of operation. The chance someone would recognize him immediately would be too great. On top of that the chance someone that works for Northwest would have said, "Cooper looks like that guy I work with, you know Kenny?" Which never happened.

Getting DNA tested is not a matter of me sending a request and Quantico jumping on it. They have much more important matters at hand and Cooper requests are at the end of the line. For me to make a request it would have to be someone who first and foremost matches the description of Cooper and has the background of who we think Cooper might be.

[Ckret 0]

Still looking for the cigarettes, after they were processed in the lab they were sent back to the field. So they are somewhere between Washington DC and Seattle or disposed of. Every spot on the plane possibly touched by Cooper was processed for prints. The seats he was sitting in were actually removed and sent to DC.

The DNA is male, the lab report stated the sample came from a combination of male doners.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

One thing I'm curious about regarding the tie... suppose he does take it off before he puts his gear on...

Then why oh why is the tie clasp still on the tie? Did this guy not know that you clip the tie to your shirt? This would have had to been removed while removing a tie.

And one last thing, was cooper wearing a jacket underneath his raincoat? If so, were they both worn in an open style? We've always been told Cooper wore a black tie with a pearl "tie tack"... is this what the witnesses reported, or was this based on the evidence left behind?

I'm not insinuating they're two different things, I'm just wondering how this description was generated.

[Ckret 0]

There is a small permanent indentation on the tie where one would place the clasp. From that I would imagine Cooper never took the clasp off of the tie. When he was done with it for the day he took it off, clasp in place and threw it in a drawer until the next time he used.

The witnesses stated he had a dark suit with an overcoat, I would think that means he had on a suit jacket under the overcoat. Since they stated he had on a tie and described the clasp I would assume he wore it open.

[skyjack71 0]

Good Grief! You guys have been busy.
I don't understand a lot of what you guys are going on about, but I have to get my two SIMPLE cents in on this - Duane always said KISS - (keep it simply stupid.)

I had read about the paper sack only once and it was in a spoof book - did not realize that he actually did board with a bag. Lunch, supplies, smokes, gloves or a tie and clasp to plant?
.
A tie with Multiple DNA and you can rule Duane out without even knowing if that was the tie he was wearing!

The only reason I say this is because an individual contacted me yrs ago - and this is one of the things he kept hammering me with -that the tie and the clasp was meant to incriminate another party. I discounted most of this person's information - except the fact that he was able to put Duane and his wife in Mn. for a short period of time. The wife of the day - told me when I questioned her about this that she had forgot about being there because it was only for a few wks in the late 60's when they were running from the FBI. The rest of that story is not for a forum and the FBI is aware of this individual.

The money coming up at Tena's bar - ha. If you go to the Columbia - say across for the Portland Airport or an old motel that was near the Old bridge over to Portland. Throw a bag of money - a paper sack with just some of the money- into the Columbia. He may even have put some rocks in with it. It would float down the river and the river bends down near the bar and the package would have got caught up in other debrie - water soaked enough that it set in at Tena's and then got covered with debrie. Remember that it was fall when we went there in 1979. It had all winter to accumulate the few inches of sand over it...according to Bryan all he did was rake his hands over the area - he was NOT digging.

I have been to Tena's bar and that seems to be a shallow area in the spot I was told the money was found and there appeared to be a marsh type area on the Oregon side.. In other areas I was able to go to I did not see what I would call a beach only at Tena's.

Ckret, why did Flybounce call you Bob way back when? He was already aware of you - this was not in your profile......

NOW - I have a question for you Ckret and one that NEEDS to be answered. Was there not a shoe shine guy set up at the airport in 1971? Do you know who he was (his name) and if he left the area a few years later? I have a REASON for needing this answer.

When Duane and I lived in Mobile, Al. we went to N. Orleans - and he was looking for someone... and the told me something about the man. We did not find the man. Again this is not something I discuss in a forum and I have already said too much.

Somewhere along the path someone said that the ticket would have been faded and unreadable, but you have the broading pass and you can read that. I just remember what I said out loud to Duane - I do not remember if it had a name. Out-loud I stated that it was an OLD ticket from Portland to Seattle. On the copy of the boarding pass you presented - it had a name on it - was that written in by the ticket agent or did the passenger sign it? I do not remember if there was a name - but I remember that it seemed to have some red carbon print. I remember telling Duane that 1971 was the first time I had ever flown in a commercial plane....maybe why I remembered the date.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Ckret 0]

No idea why he called me Bob. Flybounce, why did you call me Bob?

I have not seen any interviews with regard to a shoeshine at the airport.

The agent completed the ticket.

[Orange1 0]

Jo, forgive me for asking this again as I may have missed some bits of this long thread, but has there yet been any evidence that Duane had ever skydived?

Ckret - I can understand DNA requests are at the back of the line, but someone else has pointed out the folly of physical descriptions - though I take your point about his area of work.

Could the paper sack have been for something like goggles/alti or other accessories for a jump? (i can't recall reading he asked for anything like that, only the parachutes?)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[SafecrackingPLF 0]

We only "know" certain things, and a lot of what we know has been tainted by the media and handed down through myth. If we're to put logic and deductive reasoning into this, then we need to know the facts.

I'm not sure if it's PDX or SEA, but I've seen a shoe shine set up to this day in one of these airports.

The only way a boarding pass or ticket stub would be faded is if it were in sunlight. I have several movie stubs from 15+ years that are very legible, but they're in a ring box stuffed away in a drawer. I've had stubs wear out in a matter of months sitting in my wallet or on my desk. From your description of the boarding pass, it was not in very much sunlight and probably was never kept out in the open and probably never had the chance to fade much.

As for the cash that was found, I cannot come up with any theory that would work against the idea that Duane threw money into the river near the I-5 bridge in the Fall of 79, just months before Brian found money in Feb of 80.
In my mind, your scenario fits quite well with what we know.

Like I said before, if it didn't happen that way, then it likely happened in a way very similar to it. There's only so many ways we get four bundles of cash just a few inches below the surface of sand right at the water's edge like that, especially 8+ years after the fact.

Orange1, in Skyjack71's 4th smiley, she mentions a person who contacted her and swore up and down that the tie & clasp was intended to implicate someone else. This would have had to been long before the past few months when we knew there actually was a tie left behind. From what I've read on this forum & a few others, (correct me if I'm wrong skyjack) but this same guy also told her they were all part of a group who practiced skydiving. But of course, skyjack also states she discounted much of what that guy told her, so who knows.

Ckret, that seat that was removed should be in the Smithsonian!

Ckret, I do have a follow up question about the tie. Was it found with the clasp on it, or off of it? I followed what you said regarding the permanent indent on the tie, but I'm unclear as to a few things... how strong is the clasp? I've never worn a clasp because they are notorious for ruining a tie, the clipping mechanism indents the tie like you mentioned. If that clasp was on the tie for any length of time in the evidence box, then surely it would now have a permanent indent on it. If you're looking at the tie now, it would be next to impossible to know when the indent became permanent. None the less, I can easily agree that the tie could have been ruined already when left behind on flight 305. This would be especially true if this was indeed a second hand tie, or even just an old tie.

[Ckret 0]

"Folly of physical description." I don't recall who brought this up but I do recall the post. The work that has been conducted on eye witness identification has focused from the traditional aspect of violent crime. A fleeting encounter with a subject who is committing a crime that last less than a minute.

For example, a typical bank robbery (my area of focus) lasts 20 seconds or less. The robber approaches, passes his demand note to the teller, the teller reads, complies and the robber runs out of the bank.

In this situation the tellers get the description wrong most of the time. Not absolutely wrong, but wrong enough that sometimes I can't find on the video the person they described.

The Cooper case was nothing like this. Every person who had contact with Cooper described him consistently. The two individuals who had the most contact with him were separated for the flight, so they had little chance to get together and discuss Cooper. Schaffner got off the plane in Seattle, Mucklow in Reno, both were interviewed that night and gave consistent descriptions.

They described the situation as calm and Cooper as calm, quiet and polite. In fact, Tina described joking with Cooper towards the end of the flight and Schaffner described him as child like. In other words no trauma that would taint the description.

Nothing in this investigation points to dismissing the witnesses descriptions to the point that males who don't fall within their description should be considered. Thats not to say that they aren't documented.