Freefall Stability Problem

[TheBile 0]

I have finished my second attempt at AFF Level 3 and I still have a stability problem.
On the first attempt I was having major problems with my legs as I was to discover in the debriefing. Up there though I felt so unstable and I was rocking about all over the place whilst turning to the left. I couldn’t understand why. I knew it had something to do with my arch but my mind kind of lost awareness of my leg position. This instability seemed to get worse and, although I arched as best as I could, I started to rely on the Jumpmasters to keep me stable. I felt relief when the altimeter reached 6,000ft and pulled my main.
On the second attempt I had solved the rotational problem and I was stable enough following the release of the Secondary JM, but as soon as the Primary JM let go, I backslid away from him due to bad knee position. (My heels were too close to my butt). He then caught up with me and grabbed hold of my arm to stabilise me. (He grabbed the arm because it was the only part of me he could reach due to the relative velocity.) This is when things started to get a little hairy. As much as I tried to put the arch on, I couldn't get stable. I seemed to adopt a flat spin which wouldn't stop no matter how much I tried to arch. I checked the altimeter which was 500ft (3 secs) away from the hard deck of 5500ft and I made the decision to pull. Unfortunately the instructor still had a hold of my arm so I couldn't. A second or so after that I felt the G's kick in and saw the instructor fall away from me. I realised that he had pulled my ripcord. The chute opened with no problems and I drifted down safely.
This jump knocked my confidence a bit, so I was surprised when the instructor said he would clear me for Level 4. He says it's just a case of needing practice and developing the muscle memory, but personally I would prefer to nail the problem before going back up there for Level 4.
In a dirt dive I am told that my leg position is OK and should be good enough for a stable fall, but I'm having difficulty translating that to freefall. I feel the reason is because on the ground my leg muscles are pulling against gravity, but up there they are pushing against the 120mph relative wind.
Due to deteriorating weather conditions I have some considerable time before my next jump. Any advice or comment from you guys in the meantime would be appreciated. Be advised that we don't have any wind tunnels in this country which I feel would be my best course of action.
Cheers

Gerb

I stir feelings in others they themselves don't understand. KA'CHOW !

[skreamer 1]

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Due to deteriorating weather conditions I have some considerable time before my next jump.

Have you considered completing AFF somewhere that has better weather (eg Spain or Florida)? Its hard enough being a fun jumper in the UK, being a student must be worse.

Will

[TheBile 0]

I did consider it but my budget wouldn't stretch to going abroad.
Your right about the UK weather. I have a 2 hour trip to the nearest centre that offers AFF lessons. The first two weekends I went up there I couldn't jump because the weather wasn't suitable. It was only on the third weekend I managed to do my first jump.
UK Weather is temperamental by design, which is why they call it Mother nature !

Gerb

I stir feelings in others they themselves don't understand. KA'CHOW !

[petur 0]

By what you have described, I think this is something for you and your instructor to figure out. Many new jumpers describe very similar problems, potato-chipping, involuntary turn to one side, some backslide etc. The suggestions to solve the problem are almost the same every time: Practice on ground, listen to your instructor, visualize the dive during ride to altitude, RELAX and remember to breathe...

In the meantime, while waiting for better weather conditions, I suggest you grab a couple of skydiving movies and drink a few beers...

(omg, did I say "few"?)

---
P.
"It Hurts to Admit When You Make Mistakes -
But When They're Big Enough, the Pain Only Lasts a Second."

[Michele 1]

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I feel the reason is because on the ground my leg muscles are pulling against gravity, but up there they are pushing against the 120mph relative wind.

[on disclaimer]I am not an experienced jumper, and likely shouldn't be offering any advice...and the most important thing is to talk to your JM's, and learn from them, as they have seen you on the ground and in the air...[/off disclaimer]

I have had similar rotation problems. My problem was my arms - stuck straight out and rigid...the solution I was taught was to be able to see both hands in the periphery of my vision at the same time while in freefall...and when I remember to do that, I don't rotate.

But about the part I snipped and quoted. From what I understand, and from what my body says, the leg muscles aren't used at all...it's the contraction of the lower back and butt muscles which create the arch. If you lay flat on the floor, and then arch (not a creeper or anything elevated), you should be contracting the lower back and butt muscles, and not using the leg or arm muscles to create the arch.

Try laying flat on the ground, and lifting your shoulders off the floor - without using your arms. Feel which muscles are working. Then try lifting your legs off the floor....and feel which muscles are working. Look at some of the AFF photos in the gallery and see what I'm talking about ...and then practice your arch over and over and over and over and over and over...

If I understand this correctly, at our level (beginner) the legs and arms come into play to create "horizontal" (turning) stability, whereas the hips/belly/chest are what connects to the "column of air", and creating "Vertical" (up/down) stability (I know what I mean, just having a hard time articulating it).

The only other piece of advice is "relax"...the moment you find you're not in control, take a deep breath, smile, and exhale...and then "rest" on the column of air...

I don't have a ton of jumps, I have no ratings, and I am not an instructor. The above is simply my own understanding of "arching". Take it for what it's worth.

Ciels and Pinks-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[franck102 0]

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***
The only other piece of advice is "relax"...the moment you find you're not in control, take a deep breath, smile, and exhale...and then "rest" on the column of air...

Franck

[franck102 0]

> The only other piece of advice is "relax"...the moment you find you're not in control, take a deep
> breath, smile, and exhale...and then "rest" on the column of air...
I just cleared level 5 on my 3rd attempt after similar problems (uncontrolled left turn would start anytime I did something)

I tried to relax-arch-put legs out to stop the turn, but that didn't work and I just grew more scared of that turn with each attempt. What worked for me was to reverse the order: agressively stop the turn as soon as it started, without thinking about relaxing/arching or using proper technique, then I was able to relax because I knew I wasn't out of control.
Most JMs it seems will try not to step in to early to give you a chance to learn. This is great if you are confident and just need to figure out the technique, but if you get scared/tense maybe you'll want to ask your JM to step in a bit sooner to help with stability until you build up some confidence.
Disclaimer: I was in your position 2 days ago, so take this for what it's worth - and of course talk to your JM about anything you want to try.
Franck

[Albatross 0]

As the two above Newbies have said RELAX. They have been there and had the problem so listen to them. I have always tried to feel the air cradle me and to breath into the arch and relax. A few things to try if the simple answer isn't enough. First try practicing the arch on the ground and have someone look at your position nd make sure that it is symetrical. Often people try to ach witht their legs and make them tense but a bit uneven. Try, as Michele said, to clench your glutes.
In the air you can try to see the same amount of each hand out of you pereiferal vision and for your legs try the toe taps.
I think that most new jumpers are too narrow with their knees. Try and get your knees wide as it gives you a wider base to ballance on. Give all these things a try and listen to your JMs. They can see you and know you best. Trust them they have your safety as their primary concern.

Chris

[Michele 1]

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I think that most new jumpers are too narrow with their knees. Try and get your knees wide as it gives you a wider base to balance on. Give all these things a try and listen to your JMs.

Hi, Chris! Good luck at Nationals! Kick ass, and say hi to "mah neeeew fri-yend..."

As to "knees wide", as someone pointed out to me this weekend, I am "no lady" in the air...so where would the right position be? Just curious - I know I'll feel it at some point, but just wanted your opinion on it.

Ciels and Pinks-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[clrarch 0]

I'm new to skydiving as well (just passed my Level 6 AFF) and have a few tips that may be helpful for stability in freefall. Sounds like from what you've described it would be helpful to work on developing your flexibility in your spine, hips, and hamstrings. If you're not flexible in these parts of your body, you'll clench too many muscles and won't be able to relax. I've been praticing yoga for four years (never imagined it would benefit skydiving!) and it's really been helpful in freefall because practicing backbends consistently has taught me how to relax an arched position. You'll definitely be working your muscles but the trick is to relax the muscles lower back so that you can fold up from your hips. Also try lifting your legs by thinking about pressing the quads to the hamstrings (your glutes will contract but try not to clench them or your lower back will tighten up) Once you get it on the ground, it gets easier in the air because you don't have to work as hard. Check out Yoga Journal's website (www.yogajournal.com) for poses you can try that would be helpful. And feel free to make fun of the yogi skydiver But I swear by the stuff!

[Albatross 0]

Michele: I try to have my knees abour shoulder width apart. It feels like kneeling on the ground and trying to be stable.

As for the Yoga. It is very helpful to be flexable. I really think that the closest you can come to the freefall AFF arch is to lie on one of the big stretching balls. Granted it is upside down but the arch is about right and depending on height it seems to give you a bit of toes out to ballence (which keeps you from backsiding). However, all you need to do to be stable is to get your CG (Center of Gravity) below the center of lift (the imaginary spot that your body is "hanging from" which should be about in your butt if you are arched.) The further lift point is above the CG the more stable it is (Think about a shuttle cock or a space ball or streamer. THe rag is high and the weight is low and they fallvery stable). However the closer the points are the more mobility you have.

Chris

[billvon 2,434]

> I backslid away from him due to bad knee position. (My heels
> were too close to my butt).

This is common. If you forget about your legs they tend to collapse onto your butt.

>He then caught up with me and grabbed hold of my arm to stabilise
> me. (He grabbed the arm because it was the only part of me he
> could reach due to the relative velocity.)

This sometimes isn't the best way to dock on a student because . . .

> As much as I tried to put the arch on, I couldn't get stable. I >seemed to adopt a flat spin which wouldn't stop no matter how much
> I tried to arch.

The problem here is that you were still backsliding. If you were all alone you would be backsliding in a straight line. Since someone had one of your arms, you'll be pivoting around your arm and turning. (This isn't really a spin, more like a spiral.) The way to fix it is not to arch harder, but rather stick your legs out more.

Had your JM redocked near your center of mass he would likely have had more luck controlling your backslide; if you had extended your legs the problem might have been avoided. I tell my students that I will either give them the standard legs-out signal or I will stick my tounge out at them if I want their legs out; I do this because sometimes I need my hands to either dock or to track towards a student. A spin due to a backslide is pretty common on the lower levels.


>I feel the reason is because on the ground my leg muscles are >pulling against gravity, but up there they are pushing against the
> 120mph relative wind.

Practice with a couch and with your instructor. Lie on the floor and push against the couch cushions with the tops of your feet; then do the same with your instructor holding the tops of your feet. He will be able to tell you what the right amount of force is.

[TheBile 0]

Less than 24 hours and I have some good advice. I knew I could rely on you lot.
Comments:
1) My primary goal, based on general consensus, will be to relax. I will also be practising the other pieces of advice received.
2) It's good to know that problems like this are common. I used to think I was just crap at it.
3) Michele - Your articulation was perfect.
4) Looks like I'll be taking up yoga during the Winter months.
Cheers everyone.

Gerb

I stir feelings in others they themselves don't understand. KA'CHOW !