Very Scary Moment for Me >> Tips!!

[TB99 0]

Saturday I was doing some 2-way FF with a friend. We were second out the plane, made sure to give a LOT of time before the first 2-way (also FFers). We didn't even start climbing out the plane until 7 seconds had passed. So we do our jump, which was excellent! Here's the scary part ...
My protrac goes off and I double check my alti, time to break (5500) ... I flip to my belly and start tracking when all of the sudden my heart goes straight up to my throat and I almost crapped my shorts. I looked down to see what was below as I was tracking and there was a big huge canopy coming straight at me! Holy sh*t I said in my head!! I veered some and tracked for another 2 seconds and pulled. I whizzed by him sniveling about 100ft away (good thing his canopy was gliding left [from my perspective]). My friend that I was jumping with whizzed by the other side of him! I was cursing up a storm under canopy trying to channel that fear out of me and get it out of my system before I landed so I wouldn't blow up at the guy.
Before I even had a chance to say anything, he approached my friend and I at the same time and apologized profusely for his mistake! He knew what he'd done wrong and was really sorry. We talked for another minute and all was well (the guy was cool, was playing Hackey-Sac with him just before the jump). Everyone was safe, he knew his mistake, all was well and we moved on.

Here's the whole point of the story. After your jump is done, most people know to track perpendicular to the jump run (I hope). If you don't know this (newbies maybe), now you know! Track away from the jump run so you don't end up under anyone. The thing a lot of people don't realize is that after you're under canopy, STILL fly away from the jump run!!! Before you go collapsing your slider and everything else you do before you start flying your canopy, give yourself a riser turn if you need to change direction away from the jump run.

Please people, don't just track perp. to the jump run, also fly canopy that way. There's no use tracking away if you're flying right back under us with your canopy!

Sorry it's so long, but this really scared the sh*t outta me when I looked down and saw that canopy directly under me coming up fast.

It's a lesson for both newbies and experienced jumpers alike ... track and fly your canopy away from the jump run. I can't say it enough!

Trailer 11/12 was the best. Thanks for the memories ... you guys rocked!

[AggieDave 6]

You were very justified to be scared there, that is scary. I'm glad that you came out ok AND you and the other jumper were able to discuss this civily.

Another point to think about is off heading openings. Fly your canopy on opening to keep on heading and away from traffic. A 180 deg turn that isn't fixed could turn into something like that, even if you didn't mean it.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[TB99 0]

Quote

Fly your canopy on opening to keep on heading and away from traffic. A 180 deg turn that isn't fixed could turn into something like that, even if you didn't mean it.

True, this is what I meant by giving a riser turn to correct any off heading openings you may have!

Another thing was the very next jump I saw another experienced jumper do the same thing (the first one was experienced as well) ... it wasn't as close (about 500ft this time) but I saw more jumpers whizzing by him! He had a small talk too ...

Trailer 11/12 was the best. Thanks for the memories ... you guys rocked!

[Ron 7]

Tracking perpendicular to the jump run sounds great in theory....

But in practice not very realistic...

I can see it now....a 10 way with 5 people tracking one way, and 5 the other.....

I am a big fan of using the departure angle of the group before me not just time. In a strong headwind, you will not go far fast....But the angle WILL be correct.

Somethings about this you need to ask.

1. What were the winds aloft doing?
2. How fast was the fall rates between the two groups....
A bad freeflyer who corks alot is not going very fast for the whole dive....also alot of freeflyers are adding flat work...again slowing them down. a slower group will drift more in high winds. If you were the slower group it could cause you to drift and lessen your seperation.
3. Were the people on the 1st group going headdown, or were they not perfectly headdown? If not, they can track like hell across the sky.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[TB99 0]

This is true for a 10 way, a different story ... but a 2 way should have no problems tracking.
The winds that day were very moderate, not strong at all, but not light either.
We waited until they were at around a 45degree angle before we started climbing out.
Not sure exactly what they were doing, but I knew some was head down some was sit, while our whole jump we managed a pretty decent paced sit (neither of us cork or anything).
The biggest thing was even if he had tracked wrong, he was under canopy and still flying the jump run line. Even if we somehow ended up on top of him because of winds, and he opened and started flyin the canopy perp to the jump run (which is towards the DZ anyways! dunno why he was flying away in the first place) it would've been okay.

Trailer 11/12 was the best. Thanks for the memories ... you guys rocked!

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

a big fan of using the departure angle of the group before me not just time. In a strong headwind, you will not go far fast....But the angle WILL be correct.

Actually, the angle will NOT be correct. Aproximtely one second after leaving the plane, the jumpers will be about 30 degrees off the horizon. They will never get more then 30 degrees (roughly, depending on conditions) off the horizon.

For a really good explanation of why this is the case, I strongly recomend you go through Kallend's website, at http://www.iit.edu/~kallend/skydive/#resources A good place to start is the powerpoint presentation. The Interactive Freefall Tragectory Program is also good.

In the attached image, notice that a: the angle of the jumpers is constant from shortly after they leave the plane, and b: they never get anywhere near 45 degrees.

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[diverdriver 5]

Quote

I am a big fan of using the departure angle of the group before me not just time. In a strong headwind, you will not go far fast....But the angle WILL be correct.

No, it never will. All you are looking at is how the jumpers are decelerating their forward motion with the aircraft. It will NEVER guarantee you seperation at deployment.

Again, go look at Professor John Kallend's website on freefall drift. HERE He is a professor of engineering and has spent many, MANY hours on developing this program and speaking at different events on freefall drift myths and realities.

I say again, the angle method does NOT guarantee seperation at deployment altitude.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[Ron 7]

Well I have seen his Program work, and it is good.

I also never said I ONLY look at angle....I use time just like everyone else.

Here in Zhills the FF go out first.....They don't drift as much as a RW group. It is easy to get above them.

The Angle approach has worked for me....I am not even going to start a discussion about it.....It has, and will continue to be beat to death long after I am dead.

It is ground speed vs airspeed.
If an Aircraft was doing 80 into an 80 MPH wind....and 10 solos left seperate exits and no one pulled.....the bodies would almost pile up.

It has worked for me for almost 10 years.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,454]

>The Angle approach has worked for me....I am not even going to
> start a discussion about it.....It has, and will continue to be beat to
> death long after I am dead.

That's an eerie choice of wording. It simply does not work. It makes about as much sense as sticking your hand out the door of the plane to see what the uppers are doing.

>It is ground speed vs airspeed.

Now that's a good metric and will work in 95% of situations, so if that's part of your exit strategy sounds like things will work out.

[diverdriver 5]

Quote

I also never said I ONLY look at angle....I use time just like everyone else.

Yes, you said:

Quote

I am a big fan of using the departure angle of the group before me not just time.

So I'm just going on your words that seem that you like using the angle method over counting.

To all: The thing you need to remember is that if the plane doesn't go anywhere over the ground (80mph headwind, airspeed 80mph) then you won't have any seperation (as you stated). But if you watched those solos leave they would "appear" to drift "back" just like any group departing when the groundspeed it higher. They won't go straight down from your perspective because they are now drifting in the 80mph wind in your example. So just waiting for there to be an angle backwards towards the tail can only fool the observer. You MUST know how far you have traveled over the ground relative to the prvious group. That is done by knowing the groundspeed. R (rate) x T (time) = D (distance). Knowing the groundspeed from the pilot will allow you to pick the correct seperation time. Angle method does NOT guarantee seperation at deployment. You have to know how far you have traveled. And also remember that just because the airspeed indicator says 80 knots doesn't mean that's how fast you are going through the air. Your TRUE AIRSPEED will be higher. 80 knots indicated airspeed at 13K above sea level will be about 105 knots True Airspeed. In a no wind condition TAS = GS.

100+ knots groundpseed = 5 seconds
90-100 knots = 10 - 6 seconds
80-90 knots = 15 - 10 seconds
70-80 knots = 20 - 15 seconds
60-70 knots = 30 - 20 seconds
less than 60 knots = 30+ seconds

I'm rehashing it because there might be new jumpers here who have not seen this conversation before. Yes, they can do a search and pull up some of the threads. But it is easier some times to just post it again.

I've been on the "drift over" load and come down next to a flat fly solo after my solo free fly. It has to be avoided at all costs.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[TB99 0]

I usually just count 7 seconds then start my climb out ... that should be plenty of time no matter what the winds are doing (we're flying superotters and skyvans). Only time I give a second or two less time is on a completely no wind day ground to uppers (or light winds). I do, however, like to watch them as I'm waiting to climb out:)

Trailer 11/12 was the best. Thanks for the memories ... you guys rocked!

[wildblue 4]

Quote

I usually just count 7 seconds then start my climb out ...

Ick... again, you have to know what the winds are doing, direction of jump run, etc etc.... just having a 'standard' doesn't work. Do you give that same 7 seconds for a solo in front of you as you do a 16 way? What happens when you visit someplace that's flying a Casa? And that 7 seconds is entirely too long, and you screw the last few groups out, and they land off.

Learn people! Ignorance is not bliss in this sport.

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[TB99 0]

I'm talking standard situations ... if big way teams are jumping before me, they get more time, but usually it's 2-3 way FFers that don't need THAT much more time ...
Also, I was telling you this was out of the faster planes ... and on days when it's not needed, I don't count that much.
I said in my last post that I usually just do the 7 seconds because that's almost always the case for me. I don't do it no matter what!

Trailer 11/12 was the best. Thanks for the memories ... you guys rocked!

[diverdriver 5]

I want everyone to know that it does not matter what plane you are flying in. Ground speed is ground speed. Yes, King Airs, Casas, and Sky Vans can fly faster than most jump planes but that does NOT mean that 7 seconds is enough time in between groups. I have seen grounspeeds as low as 17 knots in my Super Twin Otter. We were giving 45 seconds in between groups. And yes, they were mostly 2 ways and Tandems!

There is no "standard situations". There is only THIS situation at the time of your jump. You have to check. 10 years ago we did not have the great differences in disciplines as we do now. Much greater care has to be given to seperation and it has to be based on scientific fact.

This time of year the upper level winds are much higher than in the summer. If the jump plane is running directly or mostly into the upper level winds the groundspeeds can be quite low. Much greater seperation is necessary. Check with your pilot as to what the current groundspeed is and apply the seperation that I have listed with like groups. If you drop flats first (largest group to smallest), then free flyers (largest to smallest) then high pullers, students, tandems you should not have to vary the time. But if you reverse the order with free fliers first you need to give extra care between the last free fly group and the first flat fly group. It can be done but you have to understand how much more time is needed so the flat flyers don't drift over the top of the freeflyers.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[TB99 0]

Quote

If you drop flats first (largest group to smallest), then free flyers (largest to smallest) then high pullers, students, tandems you should not have to vary the time.

That's how we do it ... but thanks for the tips.

Trailer 11/12 was the best. Thanks for the memories ... you guys rocked!

[notmmrw1 0]

Sounds like the jumpers in the group ahead of you were opening higher? is this true?
Deployment altitude is important also.
Chip

[TB99 0]

We were open at about the same altitude ... the second occasion, however, yea, he was high.

Trailer 11/12 was the best. Thanks for the memories ... you guys rocked!