intentional cutaway

[dragon2 0]

UPDATE (on this thread):

Today my repack is due. Yesterday, I did an intentional cutaway. When my reserve opened minus one end-cell half a year ago, it ended with me breaking my nose (found that out later) and with me not having as much confidence in my reserve as before . My rigger and my instructor and other jumpers said to keep the reserve for now, and if I hadn´t had to use it before the next repack (half a year) then to re-create the situation and intentionally cutaway.

So this weekend I borrowed an extra harness and a belly reserve, got a briefing for the round (never seen one in my LIFE), and put those on underneath my rig. This made getting to the reserve handle a bit tricky esp. since I was trained to use both hands per handle. So my instructor told me to change my procedure for this jump to one hand per handle.
Practised this like 20 times on the ground...

Then we got a weather hold, and I became more nervous/tense every minute . Which was kinda stupid I suppose...

Finally the weather cleared enough to jump. Got out at 5000 ft and did a clear-and-pull. I had an appointed 'gear chaser' who jumped out after me. We flew to the agreed 'cutaway point', after which I hung around for a bit, still with my brakes unreleased. Then he flew a bit towards me and shouted 'Lost your nerves??!' No, but we weren´t at 3k yet which was where I was supposed to cutaway. Then I gave him the signal (well, waved my arms around) and grabbed both of my handles. Cutting away took me longer then expected (right, PEEL dummy), I waited a bit then pulled silver. Clean cutaway, nice and stable
The plane circled around, so the rest of the load apperently got to watch me. The pilot asked me later whether I like my reserve being the color of underwear, and whether I had an RSL 'cause it happened so fast apperently. Nope, I had disconnected my RSL for the occasion... And I could´ve been (a bit) faster too, I thought.

The spot turned out pretty bad; my main flew a little bit north-east, but the ground wind was west, light to fairly strong. Got flack for spotting

Of course I kept my handles, although I couldn´t tug the ripcord free, then I thought, right, I have a pin shaped like a '9' with the RSL attached to the loop Of course it´s stuck...

My gear-chase guy landed near my main and freebag, jumped a fence to grab the main (tore his pants in the process), and left me directions into which corn field my freebag had landed

I´d never seen corn that close up before, I think (I HOPE) I´ve seen enough corn now for the rest of my life but I found my freebag eventually.

So all in all, this excersize cost me 2 low jumps, and a couple of drinks. And I gained confidence in me and my reserve
The damn reserve opened just fine this time, flew really nice and landed much better then my Lightning does. Tip-toe landing!

So, no need to buy another reserve! And I happen to LIKE my pale blueish reserve

I do sorta feel I owe my Spectre an apology for cutting it away when it hadn´t done me wrong

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[CrazyIvan 0]

Interesting experience, thanks for sharing.

What kind of reserve is that?

__________________________________________
Blue Skies and May the Force be with you.

[dragon2 0]

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What kind of reserve is that?

It's a Transfair, 128 sqft, made by Parachutes de France. The Techno 128 is it's successor.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[andy2 0]

how were you going to cutaway your reserve if something bad happened to it upon doing your intentional cutaway? Or were you just planning to deploy the round reserve into it and create a bigger mess???

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[D22369 0]

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how were you going to cutaway your reserve if something bad happened to it upon doing your intentional cutaway? Or were you just planning to deploy the round reserve into it and create a bigger mess???

Actually, I believe that is exactly what you do.........
unless you had a big sharp knife.......
Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[dragon2 0]

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how were you going to cutaway your reserve if something bad happened to it upon doing your intentional cutaway? Or were you just planning to deploy the round reserve into it and create a bigger mess???

Well, actually... Yeah.

Ofcourse I did carry 2 knives with me just in case, and if the reserve had opened with one closed end-cell again I'd have landed it without deploying the round.
My instructor: even if you have a line-over on your reserve, try and see which line it is and cut it, before deploying the round.
Makes me feel I really DON'T wanna end up with both a (malfunctioning and un-cuttaway-able) square and round at the same time if I can avoid it. Although I'd rather be under a BIG mess then a small one, in terms of amount of fabric...

Luckily I didn't need the round.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[dragon2 0]

Heh heh: my instructor didn't really like my comment: Next repack can I do that again?!

Although ofcourse I DO have another rig, with a reserve in it I've never even seen before... Repack coming up in december

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Fab 0]

Couldn't you have put your reserve as a main in your other rig by the way? That way you could cut it away and wouldn't have to use a round reserve...

Ik hou niet van bolletjes

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[dragon2 0]

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Couldn't you have put your reserve as a main in your other rig by the way? That way you could cut it away and wouldn't have to use a round reserve...

Ik hou niet van bolletjes

Yeah, and I would have opened the reserve - how? No bridle-attachment on it! (It's not a Raven Nor a PD demo reserve...)

Static-lining it (was also suggested to me): also not an option: no bag/rig for a 128...

Ik wil ook geen bolletje!! Maar kan er weinig aan doen...

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[mikeat10500 10]

Dragon2
I think you did it the best way...for real.
The reserve(belly mount) had no pilot chute right!
P.S.
I think all cutaways are intentional...unless someone kicks your handle loose!

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[Kris 0]

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how were you going to cutaway your reserve if something bad happened to it upon doing your intentional cutaway? Or were you just planning to deploy the round reserve into it and create a bigger mess???

That's exactly what you want to do. Besides, if you're going to have the possibility of a two-out situation there's nothing better to have than a round to go with that square.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[Fab 0]

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Yeah, and I would have opened the reserve - how? No bridle-attachment on it! (It's not a Raven Nor a PD demo reserve...)

Didnt thought of that....

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[dragon2 0]

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The reserve(belly mount) had no pilot chute right!

Right, forgot about that. Yeah, had my rigger remove the pilot chute.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[billbooth 10]

I hate to be a "spoil sport", but what you did was very dangerous...and in fact even illegal in the United States. If you want to practice cutaways, do it on the ground. I know of no TSO'ed 3 canopy rigs, and putting one together that does not permit you to breakaway from your second main canopy is crazy. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you made it. It's just that I don't want a whole lot of people copying you, because you faced a greater danger of dying than you might face from an actual main malfunction.

Here's a "for instance": The FAA has removed spin training from its licensing requirements because it found that training accidents were killing more people than actual accidental spins were.

[billvon 2,435]

>...and in fact even illegal in the United States.

Every rig that goes through TSO testing uses dozens of such jumps.

>I know of no TSO'ed 3 canopy rigs . . .

Ah! But there are TSO'ed 1 and 2 canopy rigs (an older belly mount/harness assembly without the main attached is an example of a certificated 1 canopy rig.) Sounds like that's what she used here - a TSOed harness and reserve beneath her 'normal' rig, used as a main. The FAA doesn't much care about the main.

And there are indeed TSOed 3 canopy rigs for intentional cutaways.

>Here's a "for instance": The FAA has removed spin training from its
> licensing requirements because it found that training accidents were
> killing more people than actual accidental spins were.

I'm glad I learned to fly before that requirement was removed.

[billbooth 10]

Come on, Bill. Don't encourage people to make their own intentional cutaway rigs. Yes, as a manufacturer, I have several 3 canopy rigs, but none of them is TSO'ed. It IS legal to use such rigs in TSO testing (as a matter of fact it is required). But this does not make them legal for non-employees to use. These rigs have two cutaway systems, and their emergency procedure "Tree" makes the tandem tree look simple. They are simply not safe for low time jumpers to operate. I am with you on one thing though...I'm also glad I learned to fly before the spin requirement was removed.

[billvon 2,435]

>Come on, Bill. Don't encourage people to make their own intentional
> cutaway rigs.

I'm with you there. It's not something I'd encourage newer jumpers to do. I think there is value in learning to cut away for real, though, once you have the experience to do so. The Strong tandem rating requires (or at least used to require) a 'real' cutaway (unintentional or intentional) because that experience is useful when operating more complex systems like tandems. I think such experience is also useful for your average experienced jumper who hasn't had a cutaway yet.

>I'm also glad I learned to fly before the spin requirement was removed.

Yeah, I can understand why the requirement was removed, but every time I hear about one more procedure that people are no longer trained on it worries me - whether in general aviation or in skydiving.

[mikeat10500 10]

Bill
I know you have been around for a thousand years
more than me and have ten thousand times the experience I have ...and yet I strongly disagree.
For a guy that has been around so long ,you seem to have forgot how the west was won.
There was a DZ in canada that still used
round mains
and manual deployed belly warts up till a couple of
years ago and did not teach students how to cutaway
the main at all. In 30 years of operation close to the
largest city in the country they had one fatality(power line strike). Years ago this DZ lost it national affiliation due to its choice of equipment. When the DZ was sold a year or two ago they started with modern gear and techniques only to have their first fatality within a couple weeks of opening.
Attitudes have changed...but physics has not.
Not being able to cutaway...also means not being able to cutaway to low.
Was G. "Tiny" Broadwick crazy and just lucky?
You would not condone her actions today but it does not mean it would not work!
For the new to the sport( in the USA at least) ,listen
to Bill...he has forgotten more than I will ever know.

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but what you did was very dangerous...If you want to practice cutaways, do it on the ground. and putting one together that does not permit you to breakaway from your second main canopy is crazy. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you made it. It's just that I don't want a whole lot of people copying you, because you faced a greater danger of dying than you might face from an actual main malfunction.

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-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

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[pchapman 262]

Quote

[...]
There was a DZ in canada that still used
round mains
and manual deployed belly warts up till a couple of
years ago and did not teach students how to cutaway
the main at all. In 30 years of operation close to the
largest city in the country they had one fatality(power line strike).
[...] [This part from Bill, not Mike:]
and putting one together that does not permit you to breakaway from your second main canopy is crazy.

Regarding the old Parachute School of Toronto: They did train many, many people over many years. However, there was at least one more fatality than Mike wrote about, one that would be ammunition for Bill B.: In August 1993 an advanced student there, with about 15 jumps, died in a main-reserve entanglement. His ParaCommander malfunctioned and his manually deployed belly mount round reserve entangled with the main. Students there were not taught to cut away.

I don't know whether the student followed proper deployment procedures or not, tho' one jumper from the DZ told me he probably had. There is some risk in dumping one chute out past another. (On the other hand, in paragliding they have good success with hand deploys, tho' differences in equipment and technique make that a whole new topic.)

In the end we are left to argue whether it is useful to practice intentional cutaways, and the safety of the equipment to use for it.

Should it be fancy custom built gear? (And even so, is the gear suitable for the average jumper, I believe Bill asked. After all, experienced skydiver Rob Harris went in when he got a little mixed up with the handles a 3-canopy stunt rig).

Or does one just slap on an old belly mount with separable links to one's regular rig? (That's the way we do it in Canada, right or wrong.)

Sure the 3rd chute might fail with a higher probability because the 2nd chute (one's reserve) can't be jettisoned, but aren't we expecting the 2nd one to work?

If doing a jump on one's reserve with a belly mount tersh is bad, then what about taking up CRW, or buying a high performance canopy? Won't a few years of jumping like that create a significant chance that one will have to use one's reserve, and now with no 3rd chute to back it up?

One's answer depends on how we compare the acceptability of risks chosen more or less intentionally.

My experience some years ago was that I had never had a reserve ride. So I planned to do an intentional with a belly mount, but for various reasons the jump didn't happen. Later I took up CRW, and voila, the problem got solved: I had my first reserve ride within a couple years.

Which was crazier, trying to do an intentional with an old belly mount, or taking up CRW?

Although I can't agree with Bill the Bearded One on the whole topic, I can see that an "intentional" should not be taken lightly. The jumper should be educated on the risks of doing one, and become familiar with whatever gear they choose to use. Also, a plain vanilla intentional cutaway doesn't come anywhere near simulating what a real malfunction situation is like (eg, spinning-on-your-back).

Peter Chapman

[webracer 0]

I have done an intentional cutaway recently on a skyhook rig. It had a local main, and a PD176 for the intentional reserve. I didn't ask what the belly reserve was, but it was basically a vector reserve container with cypres, and probably filled with a 176 as well.
The reserve did have a 3-ring, and the handles were not too difficult to get at if you had to use them (but quite different from a regular sport rig).
I also thought that racer had a few intentional rigs that sport jumpers could rent/use if they go to FL.
This intentional cutaway is my only cutaway (knock on wood), although I have had a few close calls.
I put the main (spinetto) into a spin and cutaway at about 2500 AGL. The skyhook was fast, very fast. Opened straight and on heading, no line twists.
I packed the reserve before and after my jump for the priveledge of jumping it.

Troy

I am now free to exercise my downward mobility.

[mikeat10500 10]

Peter
Maybe thats why I felt so strong about it. I do a little
CRW sometimes and always think both canopys will
open ok(and I will need them both). If it goes to shit it is not usually a packing problem.
I know totals, and entanglements happen.
But she had 3 parachutes!
P.S
Was not aware of a second fatality on that DZ...but
it's a long way from here. Still a good record for no
AAD's or RSL's.

Edited to add...ya want to see crazy...this guy is crazy!
tard

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[skydiveacapulco 0]

hi
getting back to the subject. intentional cutaways.

i have a lot of them logged during the making af a training video we re created malfunctions to record on video, i have to say that it was not fun.

i dont have as much experience as some guys out there but i would not recomend doing it unless you know exactly what you are doing.

the flip side is that i think i understand more know the nature of a malfunction, and how to deal with it, it,s made me a more confident skydiver, and a lot more careful with my gear.

blue skies

blue sky sand and sun.

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

Come on, Bill. Don't encourage people to make their own intentional cutaway rigs. Yes, as a manufacturer, I have several 3 canopy rigs, but none of them is TSO'ed. It IS legal to use such rigs in TSO testing (as a matter of fact it is required). But this does not make them legal for non-employees to use. These rigs have two cutaway systems, and their emergency procedure "Tree" makes the tandem tree look simple. They are simply not safe for low time jumpers to operate. I am with you on one thing though...I'm also glad I learned to fly before the spin requirement was removed.

Bill,
If I am not mistaken these rigs must be jumped by a master rigger to be legal.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[dragon2 0]

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I hate to be a "spoil sport", but what you did was very dangerous...and in fact even illegal in the United States. If you want to practice cutaways, do it on the ground. I know of no TSO'ed 3 canopy rigs, and putting one together that does not permit you to breakaway from your second main canopy is crazy. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you made it. It's just that I don't want a whole lot of people copying you, because you faced a greater danger of dying than you might face from an actual main malfunction.

Hi,

I didn´t use a 3 canopy rig, I had 2 separate rigs on. This may or may not be illegal in the States, no idea, but over here it isn´t. In fact, if you want to become a TM and haven´t had a cutaway yet, you have to do one, the same way I did it, with an extra belly reserve. Maybe you can mount it on your own rig too if you happen to have have the hardware for a tertiary reserve (for CReW). I don´t jump with a terts, so I had a simple harness on that my rigger has for stuff like this.

I didn´t do it because I wanted to practice cutting away, I did it to see if my reserve would open ok this time after a persistent closed end-cell on the previous opening. An intentional was suggested by my rigger and by my instructor, although I think my instructor´d have been happier if a more experienced jumper had jumped it instead of me. BTW this instructor has had to do an intentional himself to get his tandem rating.

I don´t think it´s really common practice here, for instance you need 1000 jumps to become a TM and I think most people have had a malfunction by then. But it is legal here. And personally, I liked it. On the ground: can I do that again in half a year? Well my instructor didn´t really like that, it took some planning and explaining to the public and stuff. So I´m not going to do it every repack. But I think I´d like to do it again, tho. But I haven´t got a real reason to, since it opened fine this time. And if it hadn´t, or doesn´t at some time in the future, it´s going to end it´s life as a car cover...

ciel bleu,
Saskia