jlbodin 0 #1 August 26, 2003 Had two "Firsts" this weekend... On jump #13, was with the first group out of the plane, furthest from the LZ. A couple of 100+'ers wanted to do some docking with me so I could work on my "A". It went OK, but as the flysuit I was wearing was tight, I fell faster than them and we were not able to dock. At 6K we all broke away, tracked away from each other and then I pulled at ~4K. Not sure how I did it, or how it happened, but when I looked up after the cute started to deploy- "Wow! So that's what a line-twist looks like???". The lines going from my risers were twisted around each other from the top of my risers almost half-way to the chute - At least 4-5 times. Cutaway? What's my altitude - 3.5K...Not yet, let's see if this is fixable... kick and separate. I did, and it started to come out. By about 3K the twists were gone (I was a little dizzy) and I had full canopy control. Next problem I identified at about 1K on the way back to the DZ - "Hey, I've never been this far from the LZ at this low of an altitude, and I'm directly over the race tracks (pavement). Can I make it to the LZ from here? I sure as heck don't want to land on the speedway...(a place near the LZ where people get training on how to drive aggressively - and it was in use that day)" Realizing at about .5K that I was barely going to make it to the DZ and away from the race-track - the problem I now had was that I was with the wind and tracking pretty fast with it (Wind was at/about 14mph). Choice 1, turn into the wind and land (I'm really low now, 50-100', and over the DZ) or choice 2 - ride it outwith the wind. I chose choice 2 - The flare slowed the vertical movement but did little for the horizontal, and I had a great belly flop when my feet hit the ground as I was going forward a lot faster than I could run... So - 1) The guys I jumped with were scared shitless that, being a newbie I was going to try to turn low into the wind to land and were literrally thrilled that I didn't do the turn, and 2) My instructor congratulated me for not turning and choosing to eating a little dirt instead (as opposed to a lot of it), and he told me that he has never seen someone taken away in an ambulance on a downwind landing - but many for making the last second turn. So, the AFF training I got worked me out of the line-twists, and a high percentage of the accidents I've read about from DZ.com were because of low turning into the wind (someone was killed at Hollister not too long ago because of this). Education pays. And special thanks to my instructors and DZ.Com. - Jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,149 #2 August 26, 2003 That knowledge was there, but it took you to use it -- that was good heads-up thinking, and not letting any of the off-normal situations stop you from thinking your way through them. Awesome! Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #3 August 26, 2003 > and I had a great belly flop when my feet hit the ground as I was going forward a lot faster than I could run... PLFs - they're not just for breakfast anymore! My last landing went from upwind to crosswind when the wind changed on me at about 75 ft. (It had been shifty from 2k down.) Good ol' PLF made it nice and soft, compared to what I would have been looking at if I tried to stand it up.* Glad to hear you're OK. BTW, if you were the first ones out of the plane, and you were furthest from the LZ, why were you upwind of it? That would imply a downwind jump run, wouldn't it? [* Note: I have 21 jumps, am still a student, and fly a skymaster 290. So this kind of wind / landing issue may not be all that exciting to most of y'all.] -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sangiro 4 #4 August 26, 2003 QuoteI chose choice 2 Excellent! You did good. Thanks for telling the story.Safe swoops Sangiro Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #5 August 26, 2003 REALLY well done dood!!!!!! Hope you are alright, but all in all great decisions and good logic for making those decisions. Good luck with everything!! -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SunWukong 0 #6 August 26, 2003 Great job! You stopped the cascade of problems (line twists lead to less altitude to get back from a long spot) from turning into another "Low Turn Injury" post in the incidents forum. I know we've all read far too many already. Practice your PLFs, they are a lot safer than falling straight forward. The next time the DZ is a long way downwind, try going to quarter brakes or hanging on the rear risers a bit. This can slow your fall rate and let the wind carry you back more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
heftee 0 #7 August 26, 2003 Sorry if stating this downplays the great decision making, but isn't it true that you're not supposed to jump with other jumpers until AFTER you get your A license...not to 'work on your A'? ------------------------- "If you've never jumped out of a plane, the best way I can describe it is it feels as if you've just jumped out of a freakin' plane." David Whitley (Orlando Sentinel) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlbodin 0 #8 August 26, 2003 Two parts of the "A" license is docking, and organizing a group skydive. My DZO stressed that he would not allow it unless the other jumper was 100+. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
heftee 0 #9 August 26, 2003 Ok, my mistake - I was told that we were not allowed to jump with other jumpers (except coaches and instructors) until afer we got a license. That could be just DZ rules and not USPA. Thanks for correcting me! ------------------------- "If you've never jumped out of a plane, the best way I can describe it is it feels as if you've just jumped out of a freakin' plane." David Whitley (Orlando Sentinel) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #10 August 26, 2003 QuoteSorry if stating this downplays the great decision making, but isn't it true that you're not supposed to jump with other jumpers until AFTER you get your A license...not to 'work on your A'? Basic Safety Requirements: All students engaging in group freefall jumps must be accompanied by a USPA Coach until the student has obtained a USPA A license. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #11 August 26, 2003 Furthermore, from section 6-1.b of the sim: 1. Before training for group freefall, each student should complete all the training and advancement criteria through Category F(Level 6) of the USPA Integrated Student Program, Section 4. 2. Initial training for group freefall skills should begin as soon as the student completes Category F of the ISP- a. to maintain interest in skydiving b. to encourage relaxation in the air c. to develop coordination d. to establish participation in group activities e. to encourage the development of safe attitudes and procedures 3. Initial training should begin with no more than two jumpers-the trainee and a USPA Coach or higher rating holder. 4. A recommended training outline for beginning group freefall skills is included in Categories G and H of the ISP. {Italics added by me, and the only reason that I saw this is because I was reading the SIM today studying to get my A, so if for some reason I am mis-interpretting this feel free to let me know} edit: i meant to include that though it seems obvious, it is a confusing statement. Though im pretty sure it means only the coach and student. Not that everyone follows this rule~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crazy 0 #12 August 27, 2003 QuoteBy about 3K the twists were gone (I was a little dizzy) and I had full canopy control. Well done! Sounds good and safe... QuoteNext problem I identified at about 1K on the way back to the DZ - "Hey, I've never been this far from the LZ at this low of an altitude, and I'm directly over the race tracks (pavement). Can I make it to the LZ from here? Any idea why a good and safe situation degenerated into a small problem between 3K and 1K? QuoteRealizing at about .5K that I was barely going to make it to the DZ and away from the race-track - the problem I now had was that I was with the wind and tracking pretty fast with it (Wind was at/about 14mph). With that wind, you can travel quite a bit, downwind, between 1K and .3K (which is still a conservative altitude for the last turn), particularly with the brakes at 50% on a student canopy. Any idea why at .5K you are still undecided about your landing area? QuoteChoice 1, turn into the wind and land (I'm really low now, 50-100', and over the DZ) or choice 2 - ride it outwith the wind. I chose choice 2 Given this last choice, you definitely made the perfect decision. Congratulations. Any idea why a small problem at 1K degenerated into a situation where you are left with at best one bad solution at 50-100ft? Face planting downwind with 14mph of wind is a serious risk, turning at 50ft is way worse. Quote The flare slowed the vertical movement but did little for the horizontal, and I had a great belly flop when my feet hit the ground as I was going forward a lot faster than I could run... I know, it's unglamorous, but sliding on your butt might be safer than trying to run (14mph of wind + the speed of the canopy = 20+mph, enough to break an arm, a shoulder, or even the neck) Maybe it's time to talk with your instructor about long spots, flying in brakes, the wind, and alternate landing areas.-- Come Skydive Asia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlbodin 0 #13 August 27, 2003 Quote Any idea why a good and safe situation degenerated into a small problem between 3K and 1K? Because I was a lot further away from the LZ than I had ever been at a much lower altitude... most of my pulls at that distance had been at 5.5-5K... Quote With that wind, you can travel quite a bit, downwind, between 1K and .3K (which is still a conservative altitude for the last turn), particularly with the brakes at 50% on a student canopy. I had thought about that afterwards and was not sure about that providing the effect you stated... I'v got a list of questions to talk to the instructor about and that was going to be one of them... Quote Any idea why at .5K you are still undecided about your landing area? Well, the indecision was land on the racetrack or, go right and land in the scrub/high-brush, or trend left and head for the LZ (which from above the raceway was about as far away as the scrub). Quote Face planting downwind with 14mph of wind is a serious risk, turning at 50ft is way worse. I know, it's unglamorous, but sliding on your butt might be safer than trying to run (14mph of wind + the speed of the canopy = 20+mph, enough to break an arm, a shoulder, or even the neck). Agree - but I was expecting the canopy to stall in both horz and vertical directions - obvioulsy was wrong about that one as I would have rather had the stickers in my ass than in my hands and arms. Another learning by experience opportunity... Quote Maybe it's time to talk with your instructor about long spots, flying in brakes, the wind, and alternate landing areas. Agreed - I did 5 dives over the weekend and we sat down at the end of the day and went through each one of them. And I've had some time to think about last weekend (frankly, diving is ALL i think about now). I'm writing down a list of things I want to ask him while I wait for the first load Saterday morning. You answered one of them... Thanks $Ms - I'm also learning a lot here.... - Jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skr 1 #14 August 27, 2003 Here's something else to reinforce the good choice you made: http://indra.net/~bdaniels/ftw/c_wings_level.html Skr Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SunWukong 0 #15 August 27, 2003 QuoteI know, it's unglamorous, but sliding on your butt might be safer than trying to run (14mph of wind + the speed of the canopy = 20+mph, enough to break an arm, a shoulder, or even the neck) Wouldn't it be better to PLF instead of trying to buttslide if you're going that fast? If you smack you ass into the ground hard enough you can injure your spine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,149 #16 August 27, 2003 A PLF will very possibly scratch your gear at that speed, because you'll probably be going pretty fast on your back. To my way of thinking, that's evidence of your gear protecting you, which is what it's designed for. Not the most elegant way, but I'd rather scrape the gear up than break something. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonSanta 0 #17 August 27, 2003 Know a girl who got a compression injury on her spine when she landed hard on her butt. A shame, since it was (and is) a very pretty butt indeed. Santa Von GrossenArsch I only come in one flavour ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
