Demo Jumpers! CALL TO ACTION!!

[airtwardo 6]

Performers ! Our Future is at Stake!!

This is a very important issue that needs your immediate attention!!

I’ve been conversing with Mr.Chris Needles,
Executive Director of the United States Parachute Association, over the past two days and there is an issue before the board of directors that effects us all.

As we all are aware the cost of Parachute Demonstration Insurance has gone up drastically in the past two years,
and from all expectations it will again increase when the policy comes due later this year.

The amount we as performers pay to the USPA is only a portion of the actual premium.
The general membership fund has been
making up the difference for some time now.

On Friday, the board will be considering measures to either
decrease the load on the membership fund, or possibly do away completely with their involvement in providing liability insurance for use during skydiving exhibitions altogether.

Without the assistance of the organization in its current form, we as performers will be hard pressed to cover the entire premium.

My team had already lost contracts this season because the cost of required insurance coverage was not in the show sponsor’s budget.

And if the USPA removes itself from the equation entirely, we as individual performers will, for the most part be unable to find much less afford the type of insurance coverage we currently have.

It’s my opnion that Parachute Demonstrations perform a vital
service to the USPA organization and the Skydiving Industry as a whole.
We are often the initial link to the general public, creating interest in our sport.

I know that my team as well as many others take considerable
measures to direct interested future jumpers to the local drop zone and the USPA website, for information about getting started in Sport Parachuting.

The more exposure we have, the more interest we generate.

The Parachute Association gains membership, drop zones fly more loads, manufactures sell more parachutes.

Call it public relations, promotion or advertising... the
subsidization of demo insurance is ‘The Cost of Doing Business’
for the USPA.

For the organization to continue to grow, I believe the Board of Directors should determine that it’s in the best interest of us all to continue the program as is stands.

Ms. Madolyn Murdock is chairing the committee addressing this
issue.
I strongly urge everyone to take a moment right now to drop her a note with your thoughts on this issue, hopefully in support of maintaining USPA’s current involvement in providing coverage.

Her Email address is;
[email protected]

This is real everyone!
Take action now...

Don’t let them “Cut-Away” this vital program.

The board meets this Friday.

Thanks,
Jim Twardowski
The Liberty Parachute Team

The attachment is 'Capital Commentary'
from the April 2002 issue of Parachutist Magazine.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[dterrick 0]

Hi Jim:

I write this as a non-demop jumper and, for that member , a non-USPA member as I'm a Canadian citizen. I believe that using the rules of "formal logic" may isolate the issue(s) fairly. If, in the end, the USPA decides 'against' a logical conclusion, then it is THEIR problem not yours.

Parachute Demonstarions require insurance which is a cost of the event.
In order to justify paying an insurance cost, someone must recieve a benefit
If nobody recieves a benefit then demos will not occur.

This valid syllogism (yes I took a shortcut but if you care to extend the arguement it's actually 2 syllogisms) you can suggests that "somebody" must recieve a benefit and apparently in the past the USPA has felt that 'they' recieved a benefit. Now that the USPA appears NOT feel that this beneift exists, another group must be substituted. If event holders do NOT see their benefit exceeding their cost, nobody will pay the insurance and no demo will occur.

Two solutions exist: increase the benefit to someone or decrease the cost.

Next point, and this one is relevant to USPA.

The USPA's BOD administer the funds fairly and in the best interest of skydivers in general.
The USPA does not feel the membership wishes to incur increased demo costs.
Therefore the USPA must not increase funding for demos (the valid missing but implied premise is that costs have gone up).

The way I see this form the outside is that the curent USPA BOD have fear of losing more revenue from people rejecting increased membership fees and not renewing (increases due to increasing demo funds for which "the non-renewer" revieves no DIRECT benefit) than they will benefit from continuing the same demo programs and paying more to fund them.


***

One could argue that doing a demo is a priveledge and an ego trip and that YOU should fund the associated costs - or become good enough salesmen to sell the costs to the event organizers (apparently not the present case).

One could also argue that 'only very high profile groups' should do demos (Golden Knights, etc) and at the highest possible level.

If you agree with #1 then the new scenario becomes ' only good salesmen are demo jumpers'. In the second case, the prolem becomes 'only those already at the highest level get to continue doing demos'.

Think for a moment about what WalMart does to a small town when they arreive and go 24/7. The corner hardware store either competes directly, finds a niche that WalMart will NOT fill, or disappears in short order. I fear that the insurance industry has tipped the scales in their own favour without regard to the hurt it causes USPA. The 'capitalist organizers' of an event care nothing but for their bottome line - unless they too happen to be sympathetic to skydiving ... and THOSE are the demos that will not be the ones presently cancelled. So, who are left to share the imposed costst are the USPA and the demo performers.

The 'egoist demo performers' must either convince USPA their case is worthy or pay up. I feel you are attempting the former but so far only with reference to "other capitalists" like DZO's and equipment manufacturers. If you can convince THEM of your case, you will win. But if neither the DZO's or the manufacturers are interested in sharing the increased cost of demos, I fear this segment of our sport will all but disappear.

Gotta love Capitalism, right. This essay is all based on Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations (1789) - a very small part of any college Introductory Economics course. Damn somedays I hate being "educated"

Dave T
(hoping that demos are stil around when I'm qualified to do them)

PS: I put these thought together only to illustrate from an unbiased point how the decision to canel the funding can occur. Out provincial association lost ALL sport funding from the government because 'someone in government saw more value in giving the money to someone else'. Just switch MB Sport Parachute Association and 'Demo jumpers' and you have the same case - only ours happened 2 years ago

Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney)

[andy2 0]

I see it in USPA's best interest to cover you guys during your demo jumps. Afterall, you're spreading parachuting to whuffos, a few of whom probably get interested and eventually go on to become skydivers.

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[howardwhite 5]

Did Chris or anyone else give you a clue about why the premiums will increase? IOW, what losses did the insurance pay for?

HW

[airtwardo 6]

You raise some interesting points...

Granted from a rather highly uninformed point of view...

But a point of view that you came up with, so perhaps there are others with the same
clouded vision...

First,
We as humans all have an ego.
(in some, so large they don't spell check)

As skydivers, we're blessed with an extra dose.
But I don't do demo's because of an ego, if that were the case
I would be jumping in movies, or serious competition.

A parachute act is almost always in addition to a main event.
We're the 'also rans' of most programs...a skydiving demonstration
event would attract limited interest.

I have been doing demos on a professional basis for 25 years,
and the spread sheet will attest that it's cost me money...

There are no civilian demo jumpers making the morgage and feeding the kids with the proceeds from performing.
I do it because I love the sport, and feel it's the best way to expose others to my obsession.

As far as being on "The Highest Level"

I am on a team that regularly does large events...
In a week, I'm off to Dayton to perform along side The Golden Knights
in the Dayton Air Show...celebrating 100 years of aviation.
Billed as one of the largest Air Shows in the world!

The largest Air Show in the world is EAA's AirVenture in Oshkosh Wis.
Six says following the Dayton show I will be opening that show
for this, our 20th year in a row!

I may not, in your expert opinion anyway, be at that highest level...
But I can see it from here!

Costs...
The relative cost of hiring a proven Professional Parachute Team for an event
is on par with that of a top level aerobatic aircraft performer.

The gross may appear large to an 'armchair' PRO,
but the realized net is almost zero.

Airline tickets, expendables such as smoke and pyro, promotional materials and advertising eat up the check pretty quick. Not to mention the gear.

We have 62 flags of differing variations in our inventory...specially made containers for them...smoke brackets, modified parachute systems...the list go's on.
The team has spent in the area of 1500 dollars this year
for reserve repacks alone, and hasn't had to use one yet!

Come hang with me for 4-5 days for a 'weekend' show...2 or 3 jumps total!
Hump heavy gear in the hot summer sun, while being professionally pleasant to thousands of people that ask the same questions and make the same remarks.
The hundred or so dollars that is your net income for the four days you've spent away from home isn't the motivation for being there...and ego isn't even a consideration.

Having some 'wuffo' you spoke with at an event, come up to you a year or so later at the WFFC and thank you for helping discover life beyond the turf...THATS the motivation!
It's happened more than once.

Salesmanship doesn't guarantee a contract...
If a product you bought two years ago, suddenly doubles in price with no
discernible value increase...you have to question if you really need it.
If the cost to a promoter doubles...cut the act.

And as to the Golden Knights,
I have the highest respect to all members past and current, even have a couple on our team.
But as you're a Canadian, let me tell you how it works
down here in the big league...

As a taxpayer I am subsidizing the very existence of
The Army Parachute Team.
The paychecks of everyone involved...the turbine aircraft...the gear....the 1000 plus jumps a year they all make in practice.
All is a part of the Army promotional budget.
They, in relative terms, don't charge for a demo...
as a citizen, you've already paid!

The frustration is...I'm a citizen too and my tax dollars are going to fund my competition...so much for 'free market'

I don't fault the USAPT itself....If I were Army, I be trying out too!

My letter is a call to demo jumpers that truly understand what's at stake here,
hopefully further down the road...you will be among the "Higher Level" (your term) and actually be paid to skydive.

Until then keep an open mind as to my intent here.

I just want some others to stand along with me to remind those in charge of our governing organization that it's their self proclaimed duty to see that this aspect of our sport is allowed to continue.

Shown below is the title page in the 2003 SIM, Section 7 covering demo jumps.



Quote
Section 7: Exhibition Jumping and Rating

Section Summary:
A demonstration jump, also called a display or exhibition jump, is a jump at a location other than an existing drop zone done for the purpose of reward, remuneration, or promotion and principally for the benefit of spectators. One purpose of USPA is to promote successful demonstration jumps as part of an overall public relations program for the sport.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[airtwardo 6]

Hi Howard!

Increase is as yet to be determined...quite possibly up to 100%

The losses in the past few years have remained steady and predicted...several years ago a major personal injury loss in the 7 figure range really hurt.

It's more the insurance industry as a whole that's eating us...
blame it on 911 or whatever...premiums everywhere are rocketing...my homeowners has gone up 35% this year!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[tictoc 0]

"Come hang with me for 4-5 days for a 'weekend' show...2 or 3 jumps total!
Hump heavy gear in the hot summer sun, while being professionally pleasant to thousands of people that ask the same questions and make the same remarks."

Where do I sign up?
I hope USPA does not drop their suport. I think it is great you are getting the word out.

--------------------------------------------------------
Some one must go to the edge for others to be able to find it. But if you go be sure you can make it back.

[rmsmith 1]

Quote

...premiums everywhere are rocketing...my homeowners has gone up 35% this year!

The insurance industry, which "price-fixes" in collusion, sustained major losses in the stock market, and they're simply passing along the costs of their poor investment decisions to their captive customers.

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

"Come hang with me for 4-5 days for a 'weekend' show...2 or 3 jumps total!
Hump heavy gear in the hot summer sun, while being professionally pleasant to thousands of people that ask the same questions and make the same remarks."

Where do I sign up?
I hope USPA does not drop their suport. I think it is great you are getting the word out.

Thanks!
Drop them a note too...

The more the merrier!!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

Quote

...premiums everywhere are rocketing...my homeowners has gone up 35% this year!

The insurance industry, which "price-fixes" in collusion, sustained major losses in the stock market, and they're simply passing along the costs of their poor investment decisions to their captive customers.

...I know...and it's sucks!

Think I'll move to Canada!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[indigoSkye 0]

This insurance issue has me bugged! You do know how to get a lady stirred up, Jim, LOL with a grim grin. You got the Johnson blood cooking now, all right.
I am little, but a ferocious one if I get going.

The Needles article you sent me from Parachutist stated that demo jumpers who screw up cost the USPA big bucks. That means something different to me than it reads in there. That was from Parachutist magazine, April 2002, vol. 43, no. 4, in the "Capital Commentary" column .

What that really means that the almighty USPA is not regulating demo jumpers well enough. If they have a problem forking out bucks for claims, then they are giving demo insurance to the wrong people!!! Maybe the USPA needs to take a look at that instead of cutting off its nose to spite its face.

Instead of cutting demo liability, maybe the USPA needs to set some stronger criteria about who is eligible for the demo insurance. It is doubly sad, because the demo jumpers pay extra for this DISservice!!

Maybe the USPA needs to develop a better Pro certification program to ensure that a diver who applies for demo insurance is qualified to do that type of demo.

For example, jumping into staduims is tricky, because of a wind shear sometimes at the top, then an abrupt drop-off of winds, and/or a swirling effect that can demolish all but the most on-top of canopy experts.

Demos in terrain that is unfamiliar may produce similarly unexpected changes in wind speed and/or direction also. If this happens close to the ground... you know. That is a poor reflection on the sport anyway.

Sounds like the USPA is dropping the ball, and really letting the demo jumpers down. These people are the best (we expect) members of the entire "team."

9/11 had no business in that article. It has less than nothing to do with the sport. Too bad the insurance companies are using that as an excuse for ripping people off for insurance, even more than before!!!

Demo jumpers need to be able to think clearly in a rapid and logical sequence as needed to adjust to a sudden change or anything unexpected or unusual. They need to have a thorough knowledge of the place in which the demo is to go, and to know, like any other diver, at least one very good "out." They need to be very good at accuracy landings in all contitions too. They also need to have a better-than-average understanding of many kinds of meteorological phenomena, and they need to know how to find and use that information in a last-minute adjustment or decision if needed. They also need to know how to pack a parachute for the proper opening needed for any specific dive. There are many other considerations not listed here that can be entered into the "equation" of Demo Dive. Demo jumpers need to be current in jumps, in practice, and in reasonably good shape.

Perhaps submitting a specific and detailed plan for each demo, covering certain issues such as these needs to be submitted, reviewed and apporoved, before any demo insurance is allowd to be taken out.

I know this would make a bunch of trouble. Paperwork is not the skydiver's middle name, LOL. However, it would help ensure that the right person is doing the right job. 200-jump wonders will have to take a back-row seat, and practice up. Drinkers or dopers will need to think about the choices that they make.

I am no perfect one either, but these I think are central to the core of this.

How do I know this?

One time, I was asked by my club, to organize a little, informal demo into a local fundraising picnic for the Jimmy Fund. I selected my team, not by whom I liked especially, but by their attributes as skydivers. All four of my selections were people with these qualities:

D license and over 500 jumps. Able to land within a standard pea gravel pit consistently without being wild in getting there. Sober the standard Airman's 8+ hours before, and completely clean on the day of the dive. In-shape physically and in-practice in terms of recent and succcessful landings after every dive.
All able to spot; all sensible enough to know if they were too long or short, and not attached to the idea of landing out as opposed to doing something stupid.

One person asked earnestly, more than once, to be on that team. It was hard to turn him down; he was a club member, much senior to me. But he was not current, and made maybe 10 jumps per year. He was known to be drinking beer during jump ops. He had an unreliably opening canopy and a history of weird malfunctions. He was a rigger who did not pack his own rig; I did his.

And so with regret and embarrassment, I turned him down.

Two weeks later, he went to Puerto Rico on a visit, and like any good skydiver, he took along his rig.
Along came a chance for glory and strokes: a demo down in good old PR. So he did this, and not well. There was a problem with winds; he suffered a major canopy collapse, and fell hard, fracturing a femur and his pelvis. Not great, right? It gets worse.

In large bones, such as the big thighbone (femur) and in the pelvis, there is an increased chance of throwing a blood clot that can then go to the heart and lungs. This is because they are large and have a lot of marrow. Also, a sharp break can rip a little bit of a vein or artery, resulting in coagulation in a very disadvantageous place.

This kind and gentle man left the hospital, not very recovered, but bored and ready to go home. Hobbling around on crutches, a clot did cut loose, killing him as surely as if he had put a gun to his own head.

Maybe the USPA can be at least as careful as I was, about who they allow to do which demos, or at least be careful about who they allow the extra insurance to go to. By looking at the diver instead of grabbing for that extra dough, maybe things like big bucks insurance payouts will become a thing of the past.

Let's hope so, Twardo.

Quote me, this is all true... I just cannot remember the name, but I think I know who does. But the name shouldn't enter in anyway. It was a while ago; he left a family behind as he died way too young.

By being horny for glory instead of careful about what he did.

Let me know if there's something else I can do.

best to you always,

Liz

[indigoSkye 0]

Hi Twardo, & hello to all concerned with this issue of liability insurance for demos.

Please read my letter below & consider sending one also to Ms Murdoch by e mail; see AirTwardo's first post on this!!!

Here is what I sent to Ms Murdoch, in the comittee reviewing this issue. Best wishes and good luck, please let me know how this goes, and if you need something else. I am keeping my fingers crossed, so GO for it!!!

Always hit that 50 yard line in the middle, man!!

Best to the best, big guy!!

..........................................................

Dear Ms Murdock,

As a retired skydiver, a former member of the USPA, a senior parachute rigger, competitor, and as an eternal lover and promoter of the sport to others,

I urge you to work HARD on Friday with your committee to maintain the BEST level of insurance possible for ALL skydivers, and especially including properly qualified Demo Jumpers. The key is not to cut out insurance for Demos, but to make sure that demo divers ARE qualified for this work. Those criteria can be dealt with a bit later, but for now, the time is for action FOR the maintenance of insurance for demos as well as for the average jumper, and for the new or inept student.

Demo jumpers Give better than they ever Get and are CHEAPER than buying advertisements in newpapers, magazines, or any other media!!!

I know what great good these Demo jumpers do for our sport!

I too, did my share of demos. Some were small, just a High School stadium or a small charitable fundraiser; some were larger, and one was into the EAA Oshkosh Airshow (1986), which is about the biggest airshow in the world. That crowd loved it when I took off my helmet and out fell a waist-length braid of bright red hair. Girls especially appreciated it... and as a woman yourself, Ms. Murdock, I am sure you know how important it is to keep young women inspired and encouraged.

I remember every demo I ever made. All kinds of people came to me in wonder, asked for autographs, asked millions of questions, tried to carry my gear for me, fed me... and some of these soon became participants in our sport and members of your organization, supporting it in later years.

Demo divers help our sport to grow, as well as bringing more people, and more MONEY, into the organization. Not only jumping-in, demo divers often spend much of their own cash in pitching in to make every demo a complete success. These people also talk a lot more to the public, thereby inspiring larger numbers of new people to "dive in" to a new and exciting recreational and competitive sport, as well as becoming a part of a sister/brotherhood that is unmatched in any other type of clean and recreational activity.

Demo divers ARE good business. They make people interested in doing it themselves! That makes money for the USPA!!!

PLEASE keep up somehow, with the insurance for ALL skydivers!

Demo jumpers are the best in public relations that the USPA has! The most visible, the best in terms of ability, the most willing to shake a hand or write a little autograph for a child (or an adult, LOL), some of whom then overcome their fears and go out and TRY skydiving. They bring people into the sport and into the USPA!

So please put your efforts into finding new and better ways to MAINTAIN COVERAGE for these special ones, our brave demo jumpers: the best of our best!!!

Please work to KEEP insurance for ALL types of skydivers!!!


Thank you very much for your time and energy. I wish you the best of luck in your continuing efforts toward our common goal.

Sincerely

Liz Johnson
originally of Tahlaquah, OK

[dterrick 0]

Hello Jim!

[only you have been PM'd the first three paragraphs of this post out of courtesy to this forum]


My synopsis of your position is "Demo jumpers should pressure their USPA representatives NOT to decrease or eliminate their financial support of the liability insurance costs for demo jumps". Perhaps there is more to your message?

As an uninformed non-American, non-member looking in on this post, I could only comment on what I see as issues of politics, finance and economics. I can't make many informed comments on the structure of the USPA except that "the membership" voted for the people who are now in the process of doing their job. If they do it poorly and destroy this segment of the sport then the blame must lie with those who voted them in as much as those who failed to vote against them. I doubt very much that ANYONE ran on a ticket of "let's cut funding to demo jump insurance" but SOMEBODY obviously thought this was a good idea. Apparently enough people have been convinced of this viewpoint to cause you to act. BRAVO!! It is well within your right to do so.

The point of view I attempted to show was that from an economist and businessman whereas yours was exclusively from the point of the Demo jumper. I am a professional insurance and investment agent in Canada with a CFP designation; I hold an advanced degree in Business from an internationally accredited University. Perhaps I spoke with excessively abstract terms?

The real villain in this situation appears to be the Property and Casualty insurance industry (I represent Life and Disability products only but the business fundamentals are similar or identical). "They" are the ones that raised the rates to their consumer. The consumer of the insurance product is the show organizer, not the demo jumper and not the spectator. If, in the past, the USPA has made it a practice, effectively, to subsidize the show organizer so that the demos may be viable additions, that’s great. Please realize, though, that the USPA will have done this for their own "business reasons" i.e.: to generate interest in the sport and new membership fees.

There is no fundamental difference between a show organizer deciding to scrap a demo after a cost/benefit analysis and the USPA deciding to discontinue subsidies on the basis of a similar cost benefit analysis. I STRONGLY suspect they have done this, though I am ‘uninformed’ on this matter.

To the show organizer, the end consumer is the "butt in the seat"; to the USPA, the consumer is YOU, THE DEMO JUMPER – not the uninvolved recreational jumper. The show organizer answers to his corportaion/staduim owner/team/whatever... and the USPA answers to the GENERAL membership.

If you feel the USPA BOD are taking the sport in an inappropriate direction for your ‘interest group’ then it is entirely within your right to do whatever you can, collectively as 'single shareholders' (i.e.: demo jumping members) to change the USPA’s direction.

However, by blindly calling my attempt to expose the more general issues "clouded" and "uninformed" you are, in fact, only exposing yourself as being closed minded to the potentially divergent viewpoints of other interest groups and the membership at large.

***
Now, in order to bring some POSITIVE resolution to this difficult situation, may I ask these questions?

Does the USPA constitution provide a mechanism for a Plebiscite? A binding Referendum? Would it be 51 percent of the VOTES cast (as in the G.W. Bush election) or would it be 51 percent of the POSSIBLE votes? If there is such a mechanism then you should DEMAND it be used. If not, you can only continue your tact of moral suasion against the current Board of Directors. If that fails then your recourse will be to attempt to oust them at the next election; More important, you would ALSO need to fill those positions pf power with people sympathetic to your cause. THAT, as I understand it, is the Great Democratic process.

Dave Terrick
CSPA/FAI B 5079

Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney)

[mjosparky 3]

Indigo,
I think I love you!
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[rmsmith 1]

Quote

...several years ago a major personal injury loss in the 7 figure range really hurt.

Maybe you could be clearer about this since seven figures were involved.

[airtwardo 6]

Not without making a 'personal attack' on another PRO jumper....LOL

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[airtwardo 6]

***

As an uninformed non-American, non-member looking in on this post, I could only comment on what I see as issues of politics, finance and economics. I can't make many informed comments

Quote

We can agree on that anyway....

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

• Quote

[darkwing 4]

A perspective of a recreational jumper (30 years, 2000 jumps): I am willing to somewhat subsidize the demo insurance program. The key is "somewhat." At some point, perhaps even now, I believe it can become a bad decision to beggar the treasury for the demo insurance program. I do not have the numbers for any of this, so I can't say which side of the fence I am actually on.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[chuckakers 370]

The cost of demo insurance (or any other) is in direct proportion to the cost of claims filed. It therefore stands to reason that if premiums are rising, so are the claims - either in quantity, cost, or both.

I'll bet that the vast majority of claims involve infractions of FAR's, BSR's, or common sense, ei. high winds, insufficient skills, poor canopy selection, landing technique, etc.

If I remember correctly, claims can (and should) be denied if the cause of the claim involves violations of FAR's or BSR's. Assuming this is true, maybe we should go to our insurance folks with a new deal.

An example - require all claims to be investigated by a knowledgeable and objective third party such as a skydiving professional hired by the insurer. If it is concluded that any BSR'S, FAR's, or other restrictions (no hook turns, no wing loadings over a certain amount, etc.) were violated, the claim is denied. This would reduce the cost of claims for the insurer, which should reduce the cost of premiums.

We've sat around for years watching dumbass demo jumpers make the news bouncing off everything from parked cars to parked people. It was only a matter of time before these idiots cost the rest of us money, and it looks like that time has come.


.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[rmsmith 1]

Quote

Not without making a 'personal attack' on another PRO jumper....LOL

So a USPA-PRO jumper contributed to the higher cost of demo insurance, and now you would like to foist these increased expenses on the general membership?

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

Quote

Not without making a 'personal attack' on another PRO jumper....LOL

So a USPA-PRO jumper contributed to the higher cost of demo insurance, and now you would like to foist these increased expenses on the general membership?

Well...

That's why I don't want to comment.

I don't know ALL the facts of the incident, and won't pass on details I can't confirm.

For instance I don't know that he was a "PRO" rated jumper...the demo insurance is available to all members of the USPA.

The premiums didn't go up following that incident, not directly anyway...they remained level (somewhat) until just 2 years ago when as others stated above, the entire insurance industry began tightening the screws.

And " I " am not trying to " Foist " anything on anyone...

The general membership already pays a small % of the insurance...
Again, it's an available benefit to ALL members.

My point here is to try to bring awareness to those that regularly use the insurance, that we need to make the BOD work on another solution not just cut the program.
Once it's gone, I believe it will be next to impossible to reinstate it.

I do believe that as a USPA - PRO Rated jumper, we could lower the number of claims we currently have by raising
( in no small way )
the requirements for getting and keeping a PRO rating.

If it were up to me, I would put the rating at least on par with an AFF or Tandem instructor rating, in that more study, testing, and proving yourself in a number of 'judgment' situations would be required.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

The cost of demo insurance (or any other) is in direct proportion to the cost of claims filed. It therefore stands to reason that if premiums are rising, so are the claims - either in quantity, cost, or both.

I'll bet that the vast majority of claims involve infractions of FAR's, BSR's, or common sense, ei. high winds, insufficient skills, poor canopy selection, landing technique, etc.

If I remember correctly, claims can (and should) be denied if the cause of the claim involves violations of FAR's or BSR's. Assuming this is true, maybe we should go to our insurance folks with a new deal.

An example - require all claims to be investigated by a knowledgeable and objective third party such as a skydiving professional hired by the insurer. If it is concluded that any BSR'S, FAR's, or other restrictions (no hook turns, no wing loadings over a certain amount, etc.) were violated, the claim is denied. This would reduce the cost of claims for the insurer, which should reduce the cost of premiums.

We've sat around for years watching dumbass demo jumpers make the news bouncing off everything from parked cars to parked people. It was only a matter of time before these idiots cost the rest of us money, and it looks like that time has come.


.

Chuck-
Very well stated, I couldn't agree with you more.

Make you opnion known to the board, they need all the input they can get.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[mjosparky 3]

I do believe that as a USPA - PRO Rated jumper, we could lower the number of claims we currently have by raising
( in no small way )
the requirements for getting and keeping a PRO rating.

If it were up to me, I would put the rating at least on par with an AFF or Tandem instructor rating, in that more study, testing, and proving yourself in a number of 'judgment' situations would be required.

Jim,
I aggree with you completly, a Pro rating should be tough to get and keep.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[mattacl 0]

I would agree to indigoSkye's position. The SIM it self says an S&TA or IE should be consulted prior to doing a Demo Jump this person should know if each jumper is capable of the jump. As a D license holder we are qualified to do open field and level 1 demos which require the insurance in question. Granted I've only done 5 open fields. I don't know in the PRO arena level 2 and stadium demos how it is approached there or other drop zones but at our drop zone an IE or S&TA has always made the go, no go decision. I guess my point is maybe someone at this level should be exercising their authority or given the authority to say no.
The skill and maturity to approach a demo can not be measured by jump #s alone; but by demonstrated performance over and over in everyday situations. As we all know in anything in life people learn at different levels this applies to any discipline in skydiving as well as demos. The person with 300 jumps may be more competent and able to do a demo than some people with thousands of jumps. This decision needs to be made by experienced staff who know the jumper in question wishing to the demo.
Also as suggested I wouldn't see any issue with making the pro rating into a course similar to AFF or Tandem. How many of us as skydivers file NOTAMs, understand airspace, or FAA forms for doing a Demo. I eventually do want to earn a PRO rating. Having a private pilots license has helped me in this sport tremendously but not everyone has the desire to spend time, effort, and money on such training... And a two day to week long course would go far in helping jumpers obtain the knowledge and USPA to evaluate a jumpers going into the PRO arena.

Safety briefing: Dont Die!

[GigaBuist 0]

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What that really means that the almighty USPA is not regulating demo jumpers well enough. If they have a problem forking out bucks for claims, then they are giving demo insurance to the wrong people!!! Maybe the USPA needs to take a look at that instead of cutting off its nose to spite its face.

You've actually hit the point that first occured to me when I started reading this thread: "The wrong people are being insured."

I have a strong distain for current insurance practices. Insurance was originally (although perhaps I'm mistaken) as a community effort. You put money into the pool in case something went wrong with somebody else in the pool. Similar to how churches and such help out members from the common fund in disaster situations.

As soon as a formal body takes over and begins mandating who must join the pool things go to hell in a handbasket. As an insured person you should have some say regarding who goes into your pool. Auto insurance, at least in my state of Michigan (and many others) legally requires all drivers to be insured which then in turns requires all insurers to carry an equal load of high-risk people. Unfortunately this mentailly carries over into other areas of insurance and probably (err.. obviously) effects demo insurance.

If the USPA can't fork out the claims then it's obviously insuring the wrong group. Raise the standards! If they won't, try and formalize your own group and create another insurance mechanism with lower risks and a smaller pool of low risk people. That, however, would be one heck of a feat. I can't even fathom the legal requirements that go into forming your own insurance company.

I could begin a long tirade about insurance practices in health/auto/vision/etc. here but I'll refrain. If you ever catch me 3-4 beers into a night I'd keep you occupied with 60 minutes of ranting easily

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