elfanie 0 #1 December 9, 2003 Ok...so I scared myself a week and a half ago..and want to know if this is normally what people are talking about when they talk about stalled canopies.. When I first started AFF, my instructor made an offhanded comment about how he thought it was fun when up at altitude to pull both toggles down to stall the canopy. that you will get a feeling like you're tipping backwards (like in a chair you're tipping) and it's a little unnerving...but then if you release them the canopy will shoot back over your head and sort of "swing" you underneith and how much fun it is. At the time..I'm on the huge Nav288 (my exit weight even with that big of a pack was probably 160 or so...I weigh 135). I tried to stall the nav288....told my instructor I tried to stall it but it didn't stall. he said they are specifically set up NOT to stall. Fine. So I went to a nav220.....tried to stall...nope! No can do. Finally I am now on a Sil210. (exit weight is still probably no higher than 155...so very lightly wing loaded). Tried to stall it...didn't seem like I could stall it. Oh well... until a week and a half ago...I was messing around at altitude (spiralling, etc), flared hard...felt that wonderful 'floating' feeling of the flare. So I held it, just enjoying the slower feeling...and was looking around...and just enjoying the scenery and the light floaty feeling... Then I felt like I hit massive turbulance all of a sudden. I glanced up...and my canopy was basically collapsed. It looked like it does when it's snivelling. My heart did a huge thump, I released the toggles while watching my altimeter because I wasn't entirely convinced that I hadn't just screwed myself and wouldn't have to chop. It opened just fine..and my heart thumped in my chest while I stopped playing and did a very conservative final downwind/crosswind/upwind and a standing up landing next to the pea gravel. I never felt the "tippy" feeling I had expected to feel...so I have a few questions.. 1. did I just simply stall the canopy? I mean...is that what people mean when they talk about a stalled canopy? (I always thought the canopy would sort of 'fall' behind?) 2. Is doing that dangerous? Or is it something that's no big deal...? Can it cause problems...and if so, what problems? One of the other people that I was jumping with heard me commenting about stalling my canopy and he said, "Yeah..I saw you do that! It looked like a chopped canopy....I wondered what you were doing." Hrm. Educate me? -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #2 December 9, 2003 Quote1. did I just simply stall the canopy? Yes you did. Quote2. Is doing that dangerous? Or is it something that's no big deal...? Can it cause problems...and if so, what problems? It's only dangerous if it's done close to the ground. Next time try stalling it with rear risers instead of toggles. Feels and looks a bit different. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WayneRATS 0 #3 December 9, 2003 when at altitude face yourself into wind.. check your airspace and altitude.. if it's clear to do so pul down both toggles to your waist and hold them there.. it'll go quiet now look up at the canopy.. and watch it... you will feel the canopy tip you... and if it's a 9 cell the middle cell will start to bow in slighly ..now let up the toggles slowly about 4 or 5 inches ... the canopy will resume flying this area of flight is called deep brakes.. Never just let go of the toggles to recover from a stall.. you will learn that only a small let up is needed in order to get enough airspeed o keep the canopy inflated.. letting go of the toggles or letting up quickly all the way to the velcro makes the canopy nose dive .. it can be fun.. but eats up altitude.. always remain altitude aware and make sure your in clear airspace. the canopys your flying, if you notice when you check your canopy and the canopy is in full flight.. you will see a bow of brake line on each side.. this is all slack and you'll find that you have to pull the toggle down to take the slack up before the canopy will turn or flare. talk to your instructors about what you've done and look at getting extra canopy coaching.. it's all good ------------------------ Can You Ere Me Now? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andy2 0 #4 December 9, 2003 try to let the toggles back up slowly so the canopy doesnt whip around upon inflating, you can give yourself a couple of malfunctions if you just slam the toggles back up into full flight. But otherwise have at it. --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dagny 0 #5 December 9, 2003 Quoteyou can give yourself a couple of malfunctions Well, I am certainly no expert here, but which malfunctions are you referring to here? The most common problem that I am aware of which can occur when letting the toggles back up to full flight too quickly is line twists. Now, if elfanie was jumping a stilleto, or other high performance canopy, I would think a spinning mal due to line twists might result in a chop...however I'm not aware of other mals which might occur from releasing an intentional stall.Take me, I am the drug; take me, I am hallucinogenic. -Salvador Dali Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DALAILAMA 0 #6 December 9, 2003 Pilot chute over the nose isn't uncommon in these situations. Parachutist Magazine in the Fatality report a few years ago talked aboiut a guy that would continiously do this. The report said that he had bought a new parachute and was putting the last jump on his old one. He was quoted before the jump as saying that he was really gonna rag his chute out on the next jump. Unfortunately his excessive stalling and attempting to "rag out" his canopy led to his death."Dropzone.com, where uneducated people measuring penises, has become an art form" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dagny 0 #7 December 10, 2003 Surely, the PC over the nose didn't lead to his death. I would need some more detail about what exactly "ragging" out the canopy entailed before I would feel comfortable commenting on it.Take me, I am the drug; take me, I am hallucinogenic. -Salvador Dali Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DALAILAMA 0 #8 December 10, 2003 No the pilot chute over the nose is just an example of a mal that can be caused by excessive stalling. The fatality report was mid 1998"Dropzone.com, where uneducated people measuring penises, has become an art form" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TerryB 0 #9 December 10, 2003 Regarding - pull down both toggles to your waist and hold them there.. it'll go quiet now look up at the canopy.. and watch it... you will feel the canopy tip you... and if it's a 9 cell the middle cell will start to bow in slighly ..now let up the toggles slowly about 4 or 5 inches ... the canopy will resume flying this area of flight is called deep brakes.. Good information - Would anyone know what could be expected on my 7 cell Spectre??? Would the middle cell also start to bow in slightly...I believe I have flown in deep brakes but never specially looked for a bow in slightly and let up the toggles 4 to 5 inches...Can't say I have come close to collapsing my canopy, not that that is a prerequisite to that mentioned...So much to do and learn!!!Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
relyon 0 #10 December 10, 2003 QuoteNext time try stalling it with rear risers instead of toggles. Feels and looks a bit different. Here's a pic. Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #11 December 10, 2003 I believe that one of the malfunctions you can get is that your pilot chute might go over the nose, and get caught in the slack lines while the chute is still jerking around if you let up real quickly. This could cause some bad things, like an unstoppable turn, or just a wad of crap in the front of the canopy. anyways, its a sorta fun/scary thing to do if you are high enough and clear of other canopies. oh yeah, newbies, you probably don't wanna do this, you want to have some experience under your canopy before you start intentionally messing with it. I've done it twice and it was really fun for me, but it really does make your heart skip a beat when you start to fall backwards/down MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FIREFLYR 0 #12 December 10, 2003 Yeahhhh....I dont like that feeling any more. If you stall let both toggles up evenly! I was playing with my new canopy after downsizing to a PD190 loaded at 1:1. pulled both toggles down to my waste ,then let my right all the way up,....just as I was stalling! any way ,I ended up on my back with line twists and a ball of shit over my head at 2k feet got lucky and got myself out of it by 1700 ft. but it spooked me pretty good. have fun but don't expect to get away with the same stuff once you start downsizing. blue skies!"One flew East,and one flew West..............one flew over the cuckoo's nest" "There's absolutely no excuse for the way I'm about to act" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #13 December 10, 2003 My instructor told me to try everything when I was on static line traning. I have to mention two things: I used accuracy canopy and I was over 1000m when I was playing hard with my canopy. I think stalling a canopy is very important. We have to know the stall point and the behaviour of the canopy near stall. I think it should be practice high and alone/no traffic around. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WayneRATS 0 #14 December 10, 2003 a 7 cell doesn't bend in the middle when in the stall it stays fairley solid but the tip in more pronounced.. i wish i could explain it better ------------------------ Can You Ere Me Now? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #15 December 10, 2003 Can be, but I was jumping an over 300sqft 9 cell beast. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andy2 0 #16 December 11, 2003 [QUOTE]Well, I am certainly no expert here, but which malfunctions are you referring to here?[/QUOTE] Line twists mainly. Think about it though, your canopy is collapsed. If you give yourself bad enough line twists it will be hard to reinflate while twisted up. Obviously this has more to do with stalling in a hard toggle turn but still could concievably happen with an uneven flared stall. Case in point: I was at about 1,200 feet, bleeding off some altitude before I entered my pattern, with about 35 jumps. I had heard all these times that try anything above 1,000 feet and youre alright. I tried to stall my canopy with my toggles. Twisted up very tightly, probably about 5 twists. The right side of the canopy was deflated and I was losing altitude pretty quick. I kicked out (in retrospect I should of chopped) and as I kicked out of the last couple twists I was violently shook around as the canopy reinflated. I was then at about 900 feet. --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #17 December 11, 2003 I was taught not to try anything drastic below your hard deck. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 1 #18 December 11, 2003 Quote Case in point: I was at about 1,200 feet, bleeding off some altitude before I entered my pattern, with about 35 jumps. I had heard all these times that try anything above 1,000 feet and youre alright. I tried to stall my canopy with my toggles. Twisted up very tightly, probably about 5 twists. The right side of the canopy was deflated and I was losing altitude pretty quick. I kicked out (in retrospect I should of chopped) and as I kicked out of the last couple twists I was violently shook around as the canopy reinflated. I was then at about 900 feet My understanding is that at 1K your stuck with what you got.The reason for the hard deck is so you have a good canopy long before you get to 1k. I wouldn't want to be trying to cutaway at 1k. I hope I have already made my decesion before my hard deck (2K)But then again I only have 61 jumps. MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andy2 0 #19 December 11, 2003 [QUOTE]I was taught not to try anything drastic below your hard deck.[/QUOTE] Good advice you learned! But we do fuck up occasionally. --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dagny 0 #20 December 11, 2003 QuoteBut we do fuck up occasionally That we do, that we do. Unfortunately this sport isn't too forgiving of the occasional f'up. Definitely important to remember and respect your hard deck so that line twists after a stall don't result in an unnecessary incident report. Constant vigilance! Take me, I am the drug; take me, I am hallucinogenic. -Salvador Dali Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
