Joyner 0 #1 January 5, 2005 Hi all, Our drop zone recently sold our Dehaviland Otter (SINGLE Otter) to replace it with a Cessna Caravan. There has been quite some discussion regarding the cycle time for a C-208 Caravan with the 675hp conversion. Sadly little FACT has been presented. I'd like to get a second opinion on the little fact that has been presented from someone with regular experience. (Note, It's NOT the C-208B Grand Caravan), it's the small one with the big engine, we are looking to buy. If anyone can give me some info on cycle times either throttle up to Stop after landing with one jump run at 13500 ft. Or just throttle up to jump run. Please be as specific as possible regarding the specs on the airplane, altitude, elevation, number of jumpers and jump runs. Info is interesting for any type of Caravan really. Thanks!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #2 January 6, 2005 QuoteHi all, Our drop zone recently sold our Dehaviland Otter (SINGLE Otter) to replace it with a Cessna Caravan. There has been quite some discussion regarding the cycle time for a C-208 Caravan with the 675hp conversion. Sadly little FACT has been presented. I'd like to get a second opinion on the little fact that has been presented from someone with regular experience. (Note, It's NOT the C-208B Grand Caravan), it's the small one with the big engine, we are looking to buy. If anyone can give me some info on cycle times either throttle up to Stop after landing with one jump run at 13500 ft. Or just throttle up to jump run. Please be as specific as possible regarding the specs on the airplane, altitude, elevation, number of jumpers and jump runs. Info is interesting for any type of Caravan really. Thanks!! Having a big engine doesn't mean it will be run efficiently. I would say if you want the plane buy it and then adjust your jump ticket price according to how it actually does. Even if it takes 5 minutes more to climb to altitude is that a big deal? Do you run non-stop all day? Or do you shut down a few times even on your busiest days?Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #3 January 6, 2005 Diverdriver brought up a good point about start-up costs. The life of turbine engines is tied to the number of hot-cold cycles. My boss estimates that it costs him $100 every time he starts a PT6 turbine engine on his King Air, ergo he prefers to fly three or four loads per start. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joyner 0 #4 January 6, 2005 Quote Having a big engine doesn't mean it will be run efficiently. I would say if you want the plane buy it and then adjust your jump ticket price according to how it actually does. Even if it takes 5 minutes more to climb to altitude is that a big deal? Do you run non-stop all day? Or do you shut down a few times even on your busiest days? In an ideal world from a drop zone perspective we would do exactly that. Buy an airplane with good specs and adjust the price accordingly. However..... A full price ticket today at my drop zone is 150 SEK which is about $22. One other drop zone close by is charging about $19,50. The other DZ is close enough and has good enough planes and facilities to attract jumpers from our drop zone as it is. Keep in mind that the used market for turbine airplanes is VERY small in Sweden. Both the buyer of our Otter and the probable seller of the Caravan are located in the US. Both import and export of these planes are very expensive (We are talking close to $100 000 in overhead cost for importing a plane to Sweden, and getting 3-4 pilotes certified). So we can't buy a Caravan with the intention "We'll try it out for a while and see what happens". We have to "know" beforehand that we will be able to maintain a ticket price around $20 with our new plane. If we can't maintain a competitive price we'll be out of business within a year. Yes 5 minutes per load would indeed be a HUGE deal. We estimate a cycle time of about 20 minutes per load with 12 jumpers in the plane. If we add 5 minutes to that we decrease the number of jumps per tach hour on the plane by 20%, hence we would have to increase the price by 20% and there simply isn't room for that! I'm sure the situation is pretty much the same over there! I do agree that the ambition must be to run the plane back to back all day without having to shut it down. It is realistic to think that we will be able to do this at least during the high season of May-August. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #5 January 6, 2005 QuoteQuote Yes 5 minutes per load would indeed be a HUGE deal. We estimate a cycle time of about 20 minutes per load with 12 jumpers in the plane. If we add 5 minutes to that we decrease the number of jumps per tach hour on the plane by 20%, hence we would have to increase the price by 20% and there simply isn't room for that! I'm sure the situation is pretty much the same over there! I do agree that the ambition must be to run the plane back to back all day without having to shut it down. It is realistic to think that we will be able to do this at least during the high season of May-August. This is not necessarily true. The increase in tach time of 25% (not 20%) in this example will be offset by lower costs. The purchase price, maintainance and insurance costs all fall with the smaller engine. If you feel you can keep it running all day during peak season you probably need the larger engine. That said I doubt if you can reliably cycle 12 jumpers to 12500 every 20min on 675hp Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Joyner 0 #6 January 6, 2005 Quote That said I doubt if you can reliably cycle 12 jumpers to 12500 every 20min on 675hp What do you base this statement on? I've been in contact with some DZ's operating Grand Caravans with 675hp, and two of them have told me that they cycle 15 jumpers in 24 minutes (tach time). The lower weight of the smaller Caravan and 3 jumpers less, total of about 1000 lbs less, should make up for at least close to 4 minutes. The 675hp conversion costs about 6% of the total purchase price. Add to that some increase in insurance and maintenance, maybe the FINANCIAL gain of the larger engine is marginal or maybe even a small loss. BUT.... There is one very important factor in getting the bigger engine anyway. Shorter cycle times attracts jumpers, and keeps them happy! We are hoping for a total volume increase even if we are replacing the Otter with a smaller but faster AC. This is speculation at best. There certainly aren't any guarantees for getting more volume with a faster AC. This is the area were we must take a chance with a new AC. But we are not willing to take a chance on speculating on cycle times. So I am truly very interested in learning more of what you base your statement on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diverdriver 5 #7 January 7, 2005 I think you would be able to reduce your turn time. By how much I don't know. Which caravan operators have you been talking to? I know some DZs in the US that might be able to talk to you if you want unless that's what you are already doing.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Joyner 0 #8 January 7, 2005 QuoteI think you would be able to reduce your turn time. By how much I don't know. Which caravan operators have you been talking to? I know some DZs in the US that might be able to talk to you if you want unless that's what you are already doing. In the US I've been in contact with Archway and Skydive Long Island. So far only Archway has responded. They claim 2.5 loads per tach hour with 15 jumpers on a 675hp Grand Caravan. Any other places to contact would be great. Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites darkwing 4 #9 January 7, 2005 You might contact Jack Walter at Blue Sky Adventures, in St. George, SC. Phone 877-ripcord. We have had both the 675hp Caravan, and currently have a Grand Caravan. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diverdriver 5 #10 January 7, 2005 AerOhio south of Cleveland in Ohio. They have Caravan experience. Tim Butcher and Sherry Butcher are the DZOs and Sherry is a USPA Regional Director.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RMURRAY 1 #11 January 7, 2005 what was wrong with the turbine single otter? rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 15 #12 January 7, 2005 Aerohio has'nt had a Caravan since about 2002 from my memory banks. They do have a really nice -34 Otter though. Skydive Dallas has a Caravan, Crosskeys with Aire Express as their plane provider has 2 Grand Caravans and a regular Caravan. http://www.aire-express.com/ They would probally be able to get you the best info since they have experience on multiple planes. There is a similar leasing company out of the West Coast of the US that I don't know the name of off the top of my head.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Joyner 0 #13 January 7, 2005 Quotewhat was wrong with the turbine single otter? rm It was built in 1960. Parts are hard to find and expensive. Ours is / was the only one in europe. Only one company certified to service it. And they knew it if you know what I'm getting at. This together with that the fact that we've had a hard time having enough jumpers to fill back to back loads, we are looking for something smaller and faster. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Joyner 0 #14 January 7, 2005 Thanks for all the info guys! I've been in contact with several dz's by now, and they all say more or less the same thing. Expect a 20 minute turnaround (give or take a minute) with a full load. Thanks again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diverdriver 5 #15 January 7, 2005 QuoteThanks for all the info guys! I've been in contact with several dz's by now, and they all say more or less the same thing. Expect a 20 minute turnaround (give or take a minute) with a full load. Thanks again. Ahh, the power of the internet!Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites manifestRyan 0 #16 January 8, 2005 I work manifest on a caravan DZ It's around a 23 minute turn with a good pilot! 25 on a hot day Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Joyner 0 #17 January 8, 2005 QuoteI work manifest on a caravan DZ It's around a 23 minute turn with a good pilot! 25 on a hot day I'm guessing from a manifest point of view this includes loading time on the ground? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #18 January 9, 2005 www.jumpair.com---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites packing_jarrett 0 #19 January 10, 2005 oooo pick me pick me I know this one I really do. pick me! uuuuh with a full load of jumpers it will turn 3.5 loads in an hour on a normal weather day (80degrees)Na' Cho' Cheese Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Joyner 0 #20 January 10, 2005 Quoteoooo pick me pick me I know this one I really do. pick me! uuuuh with a full load of jumpers it will turn 3.5 loads in an hour on a normal weather day (80degrees) Were would this be? A 17,5 minute cycle time would probably translate into a 13-14 minute ride from wheels up to drop. It sound a little too good to me. Not that I would mind, it's just that it's quite a bit better than times stated by other DZ's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Reginald 0 #21 January 10, 2005 Dallas has a Super Otter and a Grand Caravan. I have no idea about the engine specs, but I believe the Caravan has an upgraded motor (but I really am just guessing). They run 20 minute turnarounds, reliably. I know I’m on them every weekend. ;-) The Caravan is a nice plan although I really prefer the larger door of the Otter for 4-way practice. ;-)"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RMURRAY 1 #22 January 11, 2005 for a smaller dropzone, I always wondered if the Soloy turbine 207 would not be a good choice. 7 jumpers to 12 grand in 15 minutes and you can KEEP IT RUNNING. Also, I love twin otters for 4 way rw but it is also nice to jump the local 182/185/206. I think remember a post about a turbine 207 in Finland which got a full load to 2500 for hop and pops - up and down in 2 minutes 45 seconds - something like that. rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andrewwhyte 1 #23 January 11, 2005 I think the conversion price is high enough to make it unecenomical for smaller DZs unless they are sure it's the right size for them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #24 January 11, 2005 They are REAL expensive. Spending just a little more (or making that loan a few years longer) might work out to be more profitable in the long run....---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #25 January 11, 2005 Quotefor a smaller dropzone, I always wondered if the Soloy turbine 207 would not be a good choice. 7 jumpers to 12 grand in 15 minutes and you can KEEP IT RUNNING. Also, I love twin otters for 4 way rw but it is also nice to jump the local 182/185/206. I think remember a post about a turbine 207 in Finland which got a full load to 2500 for hop and pops - up and down in 2 minutes 45 seconds - something like that. rm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I jumped from Soloy-converted Cessna 206s in Europe 20 years ago. They were still cramped with 6 jumpers on board, but the ride was so short it did not matter. A club in eastern Washington State operated a Soloy Cessna 206 or 207 until recently, something about an expensive overhaul .... A 207 has an economic advantage, because a seventh jumper is helping pay for the same operating costs. I doubt if North American skydivers are willing to pay the full operating costs of a Soloy 207, probably have to subsidize their fun with tandems. Tandem masters would love a Soloy 207: 3 tandems at a time, quick turn-arounds, etc. It would be the perfect plane for a DZ that only had 3 or 4 tandem instuctors. Even the fastest TIs would have a hard time meeting the plane, which leaves it free for fun jumpers between tandem loads. Fun all around! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Joyner 0 #6 January 6, 2005 Quote That said I doubt if you can reliably cycle 12 jumpers to 12500 every 20min on 675hp What do you base this statement on? I've been in contact with some DZ's operating Grand Caravans with 675hp, and two of them have told me that they cycle 15 jumpers in 24 minutes (tach time). The lower weight of the smaller Caravan and 3 jumpers less, total of about 1000 lbs less, should make up for at least close to 4 minutes. The 675hp conversion costs about 6% of the total purchase price. Add to that some increase in insurance and maintenance, maybe the FINANCIAL gain of the larger engine is marginal or maybe even a small loss. BUT.... There is one very important factor in getting the bigger engine anyway. Shorter cycle times attracts jumpers, and keeps them happy! We are hoping for a total volume increase even if we are replacing the Otter with a smaller but faster AC. This is speculation at best. There certainly aren't any guarantees for getting more volume with a faster AC. This is the area were we must take a chance with a new AC. But we are not willing to take a chance on speculating on cycle times. So I am truly very interested in learning more of what you base your statement on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #7 January 7, 2005 I think you would be able to reduce your turn time. By how much I don't know. Which caravan operators have you been talking to? I know some DZs in the US that might be able to talk to you if you want unless that's what you are already doing.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joyner 0 #8 January 7, 2005 QuoteI think you would be able to reduce your turn time. By how much I don't know. Which caravan operators have you been talking to? I know some DZs in the US that might be able to talk to you if you want unless that's what you are already doing. In the US I've been in contact with Archway and Skydive Long Island. So far only Archway has responded. They claim 2.5 loads per tach hour with 15 jumpers on a 675hp Grand Caravan. Any other places to contact would be great. Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #9 January 7, 2005 You might contact Jack Walter at Blue Sky Adventures, in St. George, SC. Phone 877-ripcord. We have had both the 675hp Caravan, and currently have a Grand Caravan. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #10 January 7, 2005 AerOhio south of Cleveland in Ohio. They have Caravan experience. Tim Butcher and Sherry Butcher are the DZOs and Sherry is a USPA Regional Director.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #11 January 7, 2005 what was wrong with the turbine single otter? rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #12 January 7, 2005 Aerohio has'nt had a Caravan since about 2002 from my memory banks. They do have a really nice -34 Otter though. Skydive Dallas has a Caravan, Crosskeys with Aire Express as their plane provider has 2 Grand Caravans and a regular Caravan. http://www.aire-express.com/ They would probally be able to get you the best info since they have experience on multiple planes. There is a similar leasing company out of the West Coast of the US that I don't know the name of off the top of my head.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joyner 0 #13 January 7, 2005 Quotewhat was wrong with the turbine single otter? rm It was built in 1960. Parts are hard to find and expensive. Ours is / was the only one in europe. Only one company certified to service it. And they knew it if you know what I'm getting at. This together with that the fact that we've had a hard time having enough jumpers to fill back to back loads, we are looking for something smaller and faster. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joyner 0 #14 January 7, 2005 Thanks for all the info guys! I've been in contact with several dz's by now, and they all say more or less the same thing. Expect a 20 minute turnaround (give or take a minute) with a full load. Thanks again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #15 January 7, 2005 QuoteThanks for all the info guys! I've been in contact with several dz's by now, and they all say more or less the same thing. Expect a 20 minute turnaround (give or take a minute) with a full load. Thanks again. Ahh, the power of the internet!Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
manifestRyan 0 #16 January 8, 2005 I work manifest on a caravan DZ It's around a 23 minute turn with a good pilot! 25 on a hot day Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joyner 0 #17 January 8, 2005 QuoteI work manifest on a caravan DZ It's around a 23 minute turn with a good pilot! 25 on a hot day I'm guessing from a manifest point of view this includes loading time on the ground? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #18 January 9, 2005 www.jumpair.com---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
packing_jarrett 0 #19 January 10, 2005 oooo pick me pick me I know this one I really do. pick me! uuuuh with a full load of jumpers it will turn 3.5 loads in an hour on a normal weather day (80degrees)Na' Cho' Cheese Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joyner 0 #20 January 10, 2005 Quoteoooo pick me pick me I know this one I really do. pick me! uuuuh with a full load of jumpers it will turn 3.5 loads in an hour on a normal weather day (80degrees) Were would this be? A 17,5 minute cycle time would probably translate into a 13-14 minute ride from wheels up to drop. It sound a little too good to me. Not that I would mind, it's just that it's quite a bit better than times stated by other DZ's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #21 January 10, 2005 Dallas has a Super Otter and a Grand Caravan. I have no idea about the engine specs, but I believe the Caravan has an upgraded motor (but I really am just guessing). They run 20 minute turnarounds, reliably. I know I’m on them every weekend. ;-) The Caravan is a nice plan although I really prefer the larger door of the Otter for 4-way practice. ;-)"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #22 January 11, 2005 for a smaller dropzone, I always wondered if the Soloy turbine 207 would not be a good choice. 7 jumpers to 12 grand in 15 minutes and you can KEEP IT RUNNING. Also, I love twin otters for 4 way rw but it is also nice to jump the local 182/185/206. I think remember a post about a turbine 207 in Finland which got a full load to 2500 for hop and pops - up and down in 2 minutes 45 seconds - something like that. rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #23 January 11, 2005 I think the conversion price is high enough to make it unecenomical for smaller DZs unless they are sure it's the right size for them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #24 January 11, 2005 They are REAL expensive. Spending just a little more (or making that loan a few years longer) might work out to be more profitable in the long run....---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #25 January 11, 2005 Quotefor a smaller dropzone, I always wondered if the Soloy turbine 207 would not be a good choice. 7 jumpers to 12 grand in 15 minutes and you can KEEP IT RUNNING. Also, I love twin otters for 4 way rw but it is also nice to jump the local 182/185/206. I think remember a post about a turbine 207 in Finland which got a full load to 2500 for hop and pops - up and down in 2 minutes 45 seconds - something like that. rm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I jumped from Soloy-converted Cessna 206s in Europe 20 years ago. They were still cramped with 6 jumpers on board, but the ride was so short it did not matter. A club in eastern Washington State operated a Soloy Cessna 206 or 207 until recently, something about an expensive overhaul .... A 207 has an economic advantage, because a seventh jumper is helping pay for the same operating costs. I doubt if North American skydivers are willing to pay the full operating costs of a Soloy 207, probably have to subsidize their fun with tandems. Tandem masters would love a Soloy 207: 3 tandems at a time, quick turn-arounds, etc. It would be the perfect plane for a DZ that only had 3 or 4 tandem instuctors. Even the fastest TIs would have a hard time meeting the plane, which leaves it free for fun jumpers between tandem loads. Fun all around! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
