tombuch 0 #76 February 4, 2005 Quote Are you not equally responsible as owner/jumper of that rig which you have chosen to use for yourself but have accepted a non-rigger to pack for you? As a licensed jumper , where do you stand? Technically, yes, the jumper and pilot can be held responsible, and so can the drop zone owner/corporation, and the packer. The regulation reads as follows: QuoteNo person may conduct a parachute operation using a single-harness, dual-parachute system, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow any person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft using a single-harness, dual-parachute system, unless that system has at least one main parachute, one approved reserve parachute, and one approved single person harness and container that are packed as follows......: The words "person" and "parachute operation" have been defined to include just about anybody involved in the event. For more information about regulations please see the S&TA area of The Ranch web site at: http://ranchskydive.com/safety/index.htm Specifically, read article 11 that covers packing requirements, and article 13, covering general regulations.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zep 0 #77 February 4, 2005 After reading this interesting thread I thing every major DZ should have a weekend IRS officer on hand so the packers can declare all that tax free money they earn No wonder your country is in financial ruin none of you packers pay taxes It's a joke folks Gone fishing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pms07 3 #78 February 5, 2005 QuoteQuoteWelcome to the world of being responsible for your work and actions. In most circumstances I think this is an entirely reasonable policy That's bullshit. As a rigger you should have a basic understanding of the chaos inherant in a parachute deployment. JP, Well, I don't really believe there's chaos inherent in parachute deployment...or there shouldn't be. Some users/packers certainly introduce chaos to the process however...some designs introduce chaos to the process as well. Anyway, I've done some test jumping and watched a lot of video of reserve and main openings. I think I do understand the "basics" of packing and parachute openings. I've also seen how shitty a job at least a few packers do when packing. There are others that are so good at packing it waters your eyes a bit. I'd simply like all of them to take responsibility for the job they do and there at least a few that are unwilling... Just my opinion of course. Pat Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pms07 3 #79 February 5, 2005 QuoteQuote"Would you say that as a majority, it would be a packjob or not?" If I had to give the occurance of lineovers a number, I'd say that probably 60% to 70% are induced by poor packing, and around 30% random "acts of unkindness". Line overs are one of the malfunctions that do seem to be begging to occur when you pull too much of the tail around on a pro pack, or roll the tail too much (therefore bringing those center cell lines and control lines near the leading edge of the canopy. A lot of people don't realize this, but if you want to lessen the chance of this malfunction, flat pack your canopy. Before pro packing, line overs on square canopies was virtually unheard of. Beezy, I'm not sure I understand your stats in relation to your comments about the lack of line overs prior to pro packing. I watched that evolution as well and from observation believe the line over malfunction rate prior to pro packing was pretty close to zero. So, how do you now arrive at 30% random acts causing line overs? To what cause, other than random, would you attribute all these line overs (30%) that apparently didn't happen prior to pro packing. Pat Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dqpacker 7 #80 February 6, 2005 Thats funny! We get 6 for sport rigs, 7 for student, and 10 for tandems. For new canopys 190 and bigger I tell customers 6 and a good tip for the first couple packs. or I wont pack it again and they can find a new packer. Paying for reserve repacks is stupid unless it is totally ovious that it was the packers fault. This summer we had line overs on tandems from flat and pro packing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoShitThereIWas 0 #81 February 8, 2005 I was a packer for a few years and I had just moved to an area in Northern California, called the local DZs and asked if there was anything I could do at the DZ and they trained me to be a packer. I had only gone through and just finished my AFF so I was fresh off student status. I had no experience, they taught me and my ex- boyfriend who also wanted to learn to pack so we were a team and that also helped us. You can make really good money and if you take care of your customers, you are quick and thorough, you can make quite a bit of money packing at a busy DZ. It is hard work, especially if you are packing tandems but if I could do it well for a couple years, you probably could too. Talk to the head packer in charge and the DZO of the DZ you want to work at and see if they will work something out with you. Some DZOs are really cool and let you make fun jumps for free when you are caught up with work. Some do not so I would check around and try and find the best work environment that suits your needs. There is a whole world full of DZs out there ... (sigh) Isn't life grand?? Good luck and Blue skies.Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beezyshaw 0 #82 February 8, 2005 QuoteBeezy, I'm not sure I understand your stats in relation to your comments about the lack of line overs prior to pro packing. I watched that evolution as well and from observation believe the line over malfunction rate prior to pro packing was pretty close to zero. So, how do you now arrive at 30% random acts causing line overs? To what cause, other than random, would you attribute all these line overs (30%) that apparently didn't happen prior to pro packing. Well, I'm not sure that I completely understand your question, but I'll try to put into different words the point I was making. To me the orientation or arrangement of the packed canopy (pro packed) lends itself to lineovers. Now, poor control of the lines in relation to the leading edge of the canopy "invites" the occurance of the malfunction. Good clean pro packing technique greatly reduces the chance of a lineover. The 30% number was just something I threw out there, not with any data to back up the percentage, just gut feeling. And again, the arrangement of the flat packed canopy keeps the lines totally away from the leading edge and virtually eliminates the chance of the malfunction. I think we're on the same page here, does what I'm saying make sense? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pms07 3 #83 February 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteBeezy, Well, I'm not sure that I completely understand your question, but I'll try to put into different words the point I was making. To me the orientation or arrangement of the packed canopy (pro packed) lends itself to lineovers. Now, poor control of the lines in relation to the leading edge of the canopy "invites" the occurance of the malfunction. Good clean pro packing technique greatly reduces the chance of a lineover. The 30% number was just something I threw out there, not with any data to back up the percentage, just gut feeling. And again, the arrangement of the flat packed canopy keeps the lines totally away from the leading edge and virtually eliminates the chance of the malfunction. I think we're on the same page here, does what I'm saying make sense? I think so...and agree with all about pro pack lending it itself to lineovers. What I guess I didn't understand..or read you to have said was something like; prior to pro pack=no lineovers, once pro packing became popular=a lot of lineovers...but 30% of them were not caused by pro packing? The last part is what seemed to make me wonder... If I read to much into your comments, my bad... pms Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggertj9 0 #84 February 10, 2005 Wow! That's alot of answers. Before I answer that I see some issues here that need to be resolved. As a packer and rigger, I had to reply to this one. Aggiedave said: Quote2. Understand that if you pack a mal that you should pay for the repack, although it may not be required. Umm......no. Malfunctions, besides the ones mentioned, (total due to misrouted bridal, or container not closed properly, things like this.) are totally random. Find someone who is or used to be a test jumper and ask how hard it is to MAKE A canopy malfunction. I have spoken with test jumpers and heard how hard it is to make a canopy malfunction. Everything from stiching the lines to the top of the canopy, (wich cleared most of the time anyway) to pullup cords around the D-bag (wich also cleared most of the time). Packing a malfunction even when your trying is not easy at all. The way canopy's are designed today they want to open. I don't agree with the idea that pro packing can cause malfuntions. My dropzone has one packer who solely flatpacks. While our staff has a very low malfuntion rate, neither style has shown more lineovers or other malfuntions than the other. While I do think that sloppy packing can result in a sloppy opening which can increase (not directly cause) the chance of a malfunction. If your packer is packing sloppy, get a new packer, notify the lead packer or supervising rigger of the need for more instruction. I also do not belive that a parachute opening is inherently chaotic, but I do think that 'throwing a hankerchief into a hurricane' and expecting perfect results every time is. Statisticaly, If you stay in the sport long enough you will have a malfunction. Due to something you, or your packer did? maybe. due to nothing at all just the probablility that things don't always work excactly the same every time and that jump the different things just happened to stack up against each other? more likely. QuoteThere's enough stress as it is and this is probably the lowest paying/ least appreciated/respected jobs at dropzones. While the "least appreciated" is true, I have walked with $400+ per day on busy weekends, friday - sunday. I've done it a few wednesdays too. FYI, my average pack time is 5-7 minutes. So to all those calling bullshit, have you ever noticed how hard, and how many hours your packer works? More than 14 hour days are not unheard of for a busy dropzone. As far as rate goes, I charge a flat $5. With a few exceptions. There are some people who squeeze a large canopy into tiny containers. While normally this does not bother me, I have requested an extra dollar from time to time if a rig is ridiculusly difficult. If your buddy is helping you close the rig and your both struggling, then yeah that's a little over the top. I do not however charge more for larger canopy's (unless like I said your trying to squeeze it into a tiny container). Most of the time your customers will take care of you. You get tips sometimes. I do agree with dave and bo...a canopy is a canopy. Tandems are more complicated though and require more attention therefore, more pay. As far as quoting the FAR's.........let's read them. part 105 under the regulations for packing mains states: Quote(a) The main parachute must have been packed within 120 days before the date of its use of[that should be "by"] a certificated parachute rigger, the person making the next jump with that parachute, or a non-certificated person under the direct supervision of a certification parachute rigger. The "Direct Supervision" mentioned above is a controversial subject and will be saved for another conversation. Check out the post by "tombuch" on the third page of this thread for more on that. Quote§ 65.125 Certificates: Privileges. (a) A certificated senior parachute rigger may— (1) Pack or maintain (except for major repair) any type of parachute for which he is rated; and (2) Supervise other persons in packing any type of parachute for which that person is rated in accordance with §105.43(a) or §105.45(b)(1) of this chapter. (b) A certificated master parachute rigger may— (1) Pack, maintain, or alter any type of parachute for which he is rated; and (2) Supervise other persons in packing, maintaining, or altering any type of parachute for which the certificated parachute rigger is rated in accordance with §105.43(a) or §105.45(b)(1) of this chapter. These were copied and pasted directly from the FAA website. http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?sid=4be448cfe9184072b86f89b680995704&c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title14/14cfrv2_02.tpl if your interested Now why does the FAA refer to these as "PRIVILEGES?" Because that's exactly what they are. They also say a rigger "May..." meaning IF YOU CHOOSE to exercise your PRIVILEGES you must follow the FAR's. There is nothing in the FAR's that MAKES you exercise your PRIVILEGES. So does the rigger HAVE to be responsible for a packer...the answer is no. You are not REQUIRED to take responsibility for rigging work performed by others (packing a main for someone else IS rigging work as defined by FAR part 65.125a-2) unless you CHOOSE to take that responsibility. You are resposible for you actions while CHOOSING to excercise the PRIVILAGES of your certification. Quote As for the cock this, unstow that bs, I'd prefer you leave it to me since I'm going to have to check it anyway. Very true. You or the person supervising you is responsible for that packjob. Check everthing, check often. While I somtimes pack for teams and ask them to help in some ways, (brakes, slider, or bolth,(never the pilot chute it uncocks itself most of the time anyway)) Nothing is gone with out checking it during the pack job. Also take a look at the waiver that you all sign every year. I know Our waiver at least, nullifies certian rights to hold people resposible in the event something goes wrong. Not that certian people should not be held responsible in cases of negligiance, intentional harm, or other things within a person's control. But for basic "the way the sport is" situations.....no. I belive that as a packer/rigger, your morals and respect for you business (and your fellow skydivers) should make you take the level of responsibility to insure that every risk in your relm of contol is minimized to the best of your ability. So TeminalV, My best advise to becoming a packer.........Practice!!!!! Should you get your riggers ticket before hitting the mats? Could't hurt. I think the rigging course werever you take it will teach you so much about how a parachute system is constructed, why it flys, how it opens, and tons of other things that it would greatly increase your awareness on why you do some things in packing. For everyone, some questions you can (and should) be asking if your packer is making you nervouse..... are you a rigger? if not were is your supervising rigger? is he available to take care of concerns that may arize? I personaly don't belive that number of pack jobs, or style of packing has anything to do with how good of packer you are. Ask these questions if you have concerns Sorry this post is so long. Packer Kevin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 4 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
riggertj9 0 #84 February 10, 2005 Wow! That's alot of answers. Before I answer that I see some issues here that need to be resolved. As a packer and rigger, I had to reply to this one. Aggiedave said: Quote2. Understand that if you pack a mal that you should pay for the repack, although it may not be required. Umm......no. Malfunctions, besides the ones mentioned, (total due to misrouted bridal, or container not closed properly, things like this.) are totally random. Find someone who is or used to be a test jumper and ask how hard it is to MAKE A canopy malfunction. I have spoken with test jumpers and heard how hard it is to make a canopy malfunction. Everything from stiching the lines to the top of the canopy, (wich cleared most of the time anyway) to pullup cords around the D-bag (wich also cleared most of the time). Packing a malfunction even when your trying is not easy at all. The way canopy's are designed today they want to open. I don't agree with the idea that pro packing can cause malfuntions. My dropzone has one packer who solely flatpacks. While our staff has a very low malfuntion rate, neither style has shown more lineovers or other malfuntions than the other. While I do think that sloppy packing can result in a sloppy opening which can increase (not directly cause) the chance of a malfunction. If your packer is packing sloppy, get a new packer, notify the lead packer or supervising rigger of the need for more instruction. I also do not belive that a parachute opening is inherently chaotic, but I do think that 'throwing a hankerchief into a hurricane' and expecting perfect results every time is. Statisticaly, If you stay in the sport long enough you will have a malfunction. Due to something you, or your packer did? maybe. due to nothing at all just the probablility that things don't always work excactly the same every time and that jump the different things just happened to stack up against each other? more likely. QuoteThere's enough stress as it is and this is probably the lowest paying/ least appreciated/respected jobs at dropzones. While the "least appreciated" is true, I have walked with $400+ per day on busy weekends, friday - sunday. I've done it a few wednesdays too. FYI, my average pack time is 5-7 minutes. So to all those calling bullshit, have you ever noticed how hard, and how many hours your packer works? More than 14 hour days are not unheard of for a busy dropzone. As far as rate goes, I charge a flat $5. With a few exceptions. There are some people who squeeze a large canopy into tiny containers. While normally this does not bother me, I have requested an extra dollar from time to time if a rig is ridiculusly difficult. If your buddy is helping you close the rig and your both struggling, then yeah that's a little over the top. I do not however charge more for larger canopy's (unless like I said your trying to squeeze it into a tiny container). Most of the time your customers will take care of you. You get tips sometimes. I do agree with dave and bo...a canopy is a canopy. Tandems are more complicated though and require more attention therefore, more pay. As far as quoting the FAR's.........let's read them. part 105 under the regulations for packing mains states: Quote(a) The main parachute must have been packed within 120 days before the date of its use of[that should be "by"] a certificated parachute rigger, the person making the next jump with that parachute, or a non-certificated person under the direct supervision of a certification parachute rigger. The "Direct Supervision" mentioned above is a controversial subject and will be saved for another conversation. Check out the post by "tombuch" on the third page of this thread for more on that. Quote§ 65.125 Certificates: Privileges. (a) A certificated senior parachute rigger may— (1) Pack or maintain (except for major repair) any type of parachute for which he is rated; and (2) Supervise other persons in packing any type of parachute for which that person is rated in accordance with §105.43(a) or §105.45(b)(1) of this chapter. (b) A certificated master parachute rigger may— (1) Pack, maintain, or alter any type of parachute for which he is rated; and (2) Supervise other persons in packing, maintaining, or altering any type of parachute for which the certificated parachute rigger is rated in accordance with §105.43(a) or §105.45(b)(1) of this chapter. These were copied and pasted directly from the FAA website. http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?sid=4be448cfe9184072b86f89b680995704&c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title14/14cfrv2_02.tpl if your interested Now why does the FAA refer to these as "PRIVILEGES?" Because that's exactly what they are. They also say a rigger "May..." meaning IF YOU CHOOSE to exercise your PRIVILEGES you must follow the FAR's. There is nothing in the FAR's that MAKES you exercise your PRIVILEGES. So does the rigger HAVE to be responsible for a packer...the answer is no. You are not REQUIRED to take responsibility for rigging work performed by others (packing a main for someone else IS rigging work as defined by FAR part 65.125a-2) unless you CHOOSE to take that responsibility. You are resposible for you actions while CHOOSING to excercise the PRIVILAGES of your certification. Quote As for the cock this, unstow that bs, I'd prefer you leave it to me since I'm going to have to check it anyway. Very true. You or the person supervising you is responsible for that packjob. Check everthing, check often. While I somtimes pack for teams and ask them to help in some ways, (brakes, slider, or bolth,(never the pilot chute it uncocks itself most of the time anyway)) Nothing is gone with out checking it during the pack job. Also take a look at the waiver that you all sign every year. I know Our waiver at least, nullifies certian rights to hold people resposible in the event something goes wrong. Not that certian people should not be held responsible in cases of negligiance, intentional harm, or other things within a person's control. But for basic "the way the sport is" situations.....no. I belive that as a packer/rigger, your morals and respect for you business (and your fellow skydivers) should make you take the level of responsibility to insure that every risk in your relm of contol is minimized to the best of your ability. So TeminalV, My best advise to becoming a packer.........Practice!!!!! Should you get your riggers ticket before hitting the mats? Could't hurt. I think the rigging course werever you take it will teach you so much about how a parachute system is constructed, why it flys, how it opens, and tons of other things that it would greatly increase your awareness on why you do some things in packing. For everyone, some questions you can (and should) be asking if your packer is making you nervouse..... are you a rigger? if not were is your supervising rigger? is he available to take care of concerns that may arize? I personaly don't belive that number of pack jobs, or style of packing has anything to do with how good of packer you are. Ask these questions if you have concerns Sorry this post is so long. Packer Kevin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
