Twidget888 0 #1 May 9, 2004 A few days ago, I was jumping in CA, not my regular DZ. I did a solo jump at 13,000ft and waived off at 4500 and opened at about 3500. Upon opening my left steering line broke. I took a quick visual above, and all cells were open and the canopy itself was in good shape. No question that it was flyable. I eventually landed with rear-risers. I DID NOT un-stow my right brakes. Here is my question: Would the flight characteristics of my canopy(viper 172 w/wingload of 1.4:1) have flown better if I unstowed my right brakeswhile not having any left brakes?ROCK OUT WITH YOUR C**K OUT!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ccowden 0 #2 May 9, 2004 If your left steering line broke and you didn't unstow the right, you would have had to fight a hard right turn the whole flight. Plus it would keep the right side of your canopy near a stall, making it rather easy to induce one with more rear riser input. Not to mention, on opening you should have been in a pretty good turn until you either countered with the opposite rear riser or unstowed the other brake. I would think you would be much better off unstowing the right brake and flying the canopy with rears in full flight. This is something that everyone should practice before they are put into this situation. That way you know how it will fly and where the stall point is on the rears. Stalling a canopy on the rears too high on landing can be very bad news. I am actually surprised that without unstowing the other brake, you were comfortable enough with the control you had to land it. But it just goes to show how a simple execise like practicing on rear risers and with different types of inputs can really pay off when you are put into such a situation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #3 May 10, 2004 was there a reason for not unstowing the right one? or is it just something you didnt consider? it should have been easier with both unstowed, but maybe i'm missing something (there is much i don't know about canopy piloting...) O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #4 May 10, 2004 How did the canopy fly with just the one break stowed? Did you have to use the risers just to keep level flight? Good luck with that wing loading. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ccowden 0 #5 May 10, 2004 I thought about this some more, and there are a couple things that just don't make sense to me. First- Are your jump numbers right in your profile? If they are, 1.4 is way too much of a wing loading for someone with 36 jumps. Second- You say that your steering line broke upon opening and you took a quick look up to get a visual and there was no question it was flyable. If you had a steering line break and the other remained stowed, you would have opened into a hard spin and it would stay that way until you either figured out to unstow the other brake or countered the spin with opposite rear riser. Since you left the other brake stowed, every time you would let up on the opposite rear riser you would have immediately started spinning again. You would have had to hold that rear riser the entire flight to counter the turn induced by the stowed brake just to keep it flying straight, let alone steer it back to the landing area and safely land it on rear risers. Flaring a canopy on rear risers with one brake stowed and the other rear riser pulled down to counter a turn would be a challenge for the most experienced canopy pilots. It is hard for me to understand that someone with 36 jumps just calmly did all that and decided to just land it on rears. But maybe I too am missing something. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 200 #6 May 10, 2004 Perhaps one of the lines broke above the cascade? If that were the case I'd think it'd be OK to release the brakes and let 'er fly? And I agree with the point about 1.4 wing loading with that # of jumps.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #7 May 10, 2004 If you break a steering line on opening, you ALWAYS unstow the other brake to get the canopy flying straight; it is then that you decide if you are going to be able to land the canopy in that configuration. That should have been covered in your first jump course. If you break one control line, unstow the opposite brake and then fly yourself back over the dz with the remaining toggle (to retain strength) and the opposite riser down to your final turn into the wind, then land, flaring with both rear risers. The other option is to simply use both rear risers the whole way down (harder on your arms). It's pretty amazing that you neglected to do so yet still landed the parachute. On larger, docile canopies it is actually very simply and safe to fly in and land on rears. This thread belongs in the safety and training or canopy forum, so I will now move it to one or the other. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #8 May 10, 2004 I think this is a pretty obvious troll, but I just wanna say that rear riser flaring isn't so easy. If anyone that has never practiced it needs to do it, remember to PLF! I had a stuck brakeline on saturday and attempted a rear riser landing. Didn't go very well (not sure what I did wrong other than not performing a good PLF) and I hurt my knee. Things happened very fast and I hit the ground pretty hard. I was landing in a back yard, but conditions were nearly perfect. Rear riser flaring is not something I plan to do on purpose again any time soon. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JKT 0 #9 May 10, 2004 Perhaps this is a very naive question, but would it actually help more to cut the unbroken brake line in this situation so that the canopy would at least fly in a straight line without the need for any input? As you can probably tell, I have no idea what would happen if you had no brake lines attached at all, so what effect would that actually have on the canopy?----- Official 100 jump wonder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,471 #10 May 10, 2004 >but would it actually help more to cut the unbroken brake line . . . No! If the canopy is properly trimmed, then cutting the brake line vs releasing it will do nothing. If the canopy is of a certain trim, cutting _both_ brake lines will cause the tail to 'flip up' and drop you hard, no matter what you do with rear risers. I see one or two cases of this at Bridge Day every year - the jumpers release their brakes and drop them, which with zoo toggles causes the brakes to fly free of the risers. The tail would start to waffle and flip up, leading to high descent rates. Would this happen on a modern canopy? Probably not. But that's a bad place to find out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #11 May 10, 2004 QuoteNo! If the canopy is properly trimmed, then cutting the brake line vs releasing it will do nothing. If the canopy is of a certain trim, cutting _both_ brake lines will cause the tail to 'flip up' and drop you hard hmm, good point... would it be a good idea to practice rear riser landings? i mean, i've tried flaring with rear risers up high many times, but never actually landed with them. i'm ready to do it if i have to, but i dont know if it would be a good idea to risk crashing while practicing... O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JKT 0 #12 May 10, 2004 OK, good to know... thanks Bill----- Official 100 jump wonder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,471 #13 May 10, 2004 >would it be a good idea to practice rear riser landings? Yes! Pick a perfect day - 10kt winds, soft grass, not a lot of traffic. Keep the toggles in your hands, but also grab the rear risers and pull them down a few inches to start the flare. Once you get the canopy leveled out a few inches above the ground - stop flaring! You will land going pretty fast, but with decent winds that won't be too fast. The main mistake people make trying to land with rear risers is to over-flare and stall the canopy. If you want to, as soon as you have the canopy leveled out, drop the risers and finish the flare with brakes. Just make sure you can level the canopy out at a few inches above the ground with risers alone; that's the critical skill. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #14 May 10, 2004 Quick addon to Bills post: QuoteIf you want to, as soon as you have the canopy leveled out, drop the risers and finish the flare with brakes. Just make sure you can level the canopy out at a few inches above the ground with risers alone; that's the critical skill. Make sure you practice this bit up high too!! Always keep your toggles "deep" over your hands (dont let them go), especially when using front or rear risers. Dropping toggles suck Blue ones, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #15 May 10, 2004 thanks Bill, i'll practice some more high, and when the time is right i'll do it (winds were pretty low lately...) one more thing, i know its a matter of personal preference, but is there a "right" place to grab the rear risers? my instincts say "grab where your arms feel comfortable" but i dont know, maybe it would be better to grab them near the links because its less likely to slip away ? O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #16 May 10, 2004 Hi, Quoteone more thing, i know its a matter of personal preference, but is there a "right" place to grab the rear risers? my instincts say "grab where your arms feel comfortable" but i dont know, maybe it would be better to grab them near the links because its less likely to slip away ? Bill and I discussed this in this thread. Check it out and see if it helps at all. Personally I prefer to grab them high as possible. Blue ones, ianPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #17 May 10, 2004 thanks, good thread. i'm not sure exactly where i grab them, i just reached up and grabbed where it felt good... i'll play with it and see what works out best O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #18 May 10, 2004 Just be careful. They make it sound easy. Do it wrong and you're gonna smack the ground pretty hard. I wish I had prepared to PLF. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #19 May 10, 2004 no problem anyway, if something happens, i can always sue Bill O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
