Tracking on a 3 way

[Kate1973 0]

Im after advice on whether I did the right thing or not. Set us is 3 way fun jump, dropzone in spain, where you get told a specific way to track (to avoid gliders and such like) myself and another jumper both FS1 (Cat 10) and and a A license jumper still trying to get his FS1. Did the jump and it got to tracking time...I watched the A license jumper track off and noticed he turned in his track and was then in my airspace that I was going to track. Looked back at the other jumper, who was tracking 180 to me. I decided to turn slightly and track into clean airspace and to mainly get out of the run in line that I was still in at this time. Had a little bit ofaltitude left whilst this was going on (broke off early as the a license jumper was still learning, as am I!) found as much airspace and seprartion as I could before I had to pull....thought id made the right decision...but when we got down...the other more experienced jumper said that in that scenario it would of been better for me to pull. My question is would it of been better to let them track and me just pull (bearing in mind I was still in the run in line and we were first out, so as I saw it, potentially pulling my chute with someone above me still in freefall), as I wasnt sure how much separation I would get, or should I have done what I did?

"Work to live, dont live to work"
http://www.valkyrie4way.co.yk

[d604 0]

Well, define close (to other jumper)? How much experience did this other jumper have that gave you that advise? How many other jumpers were out behind you and what was the aircraft? At what altitude was this all going down (ha,ha)?

But, readjusting a track to avoid or gain separation is fine in my book as long as you do not have to go low to do it. Such situations are hard to determine might what be the best course of action as what will be the best in one case might not be the best in another. There are a lot of factors to consider with stuff like this (your tracking ability, altitude, other jumpers around you and those that may be above you, etc.). In most cases even with jumpers out behind you they should not be above you if they have given you separation.

From what you have sad (assuming that I have understood it correctly) I would have done a quick change of direction away from the wayward tracker and the other jumper, kept my eye on them and when I felt that it was safe to whip it out I would have.

Sean

CSPA ratings C1, C2, IA, IB, QE, RA, and EJR

[billvon 2,426]

When you are doing anything larger than a 2-way, everyone should track away from the center; jump run should not be a big consideration. If you see someone deviating from their track, keep them in sight but don't deviate from your track unless they are so far off that they may run into you. (You have to be pretty far off on a track during a 3-way to run into someone else!)

I hear a lot of people worried about jump run and not tracking up/down line of flight. While this is a consideration, you are _far_ more likely to run into the people a few feet from you than the people a thousand feet away. Your #1 priority at breakoff is to get clear of the people on your dive; use good judgement in exit separation to make sure you are clear of other people on the load.

[f1shlips 2]

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When you are doing anything larger than a 2-way, everyone should track away from the center;

Why can't one person stay in the center?

--
drop zone (drop'zone) n. An incestuous sesspool of broken people. -- Attributed to a whuffo girlfriend.

[kelpdiver 2]

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When you are doing anything larger than a 2-way, everyone should track away from the center;

Why can't one person stay in the center?

That's usually reserved for the camera flyers, no?

[billvon 2,426]

>Why can't one person stay in the center?

Because then you don't get as much separation.

[Kate1973 0]

id always thought the same....that the important thing was to get as much separation as possible...but at the dz in spain they had this big thing as to not tracking up and down the jump run, or opening on the jump run, which obviously is a consideration. the serparation has to be first by far. thanks for all your advise, im pretty sure i made the right decision, to get more separation and get out the jump run. was just a bit concerned by the opinion of the jumper that I should of just pulled where I was, to me I had lots of options left open to me at that stage that could give me more separation.

thanks for your replies

"Work to live, dont live to work"
http://www.valkyrie4way.co.yk

[Remster 24]

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When you are doing anything larger than a 2-way, everyone should track away from the center;

<
Bill, Empuria has a clear guideline that smaller groups must not track along the line of flight.

Remster

[billvon 2,426]

>Bill, Empuria has a clear guideline that smaller groups must not track
>along the line of flight.

Such a rule can lead to issues like the one described here. The biggest threat to a jumper on breakoff are the other jumpers on his dive; hence the need for breakoff. A clean breakoff from the center is a much better idea than a "tracking team" with two people going in roughly the same direction, especially if they are less experienced.

[nightjumps 1]

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a clear guideline that smaller groups must not track along the line of flight.

I keep hearing this more and more and am not sure what is making it popular. How is a smaller group tracking along the flight line any different than a larger group tracking along the flight line?

[Remster 24]

Guys, dont shoot the messenger.... I'm not a big fan of that rule either, but I never had to bother with it since we pretty much only did biggish ways in Empuria. Yes, yes, I know, I should still question it, but when you are on holiday and a rule does not apply to you, you dont really want to get into arguments, do you?

Some posters here go to empuria for freeflying, they should be able to comment on a 1st person basis.

As far as larger groups: more emphasis if given to leave plenty of time after them, if there are any others in the plane.

Remster

[JohnMitchell 14]

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a clear guideline that smaller groups must not track along the line of flight.

I keep hearing this more and more and am not sure what is making it popular. How is a smaller group tracking along the flight line any different than a larger group tracking along the flight line?

Large groups have to track in all directions to get separation. You give more spacing on jump run to large groups, or should, because they also tend to break off higher, therefore tracking farther, and in all directions. A two way or three way is able to track perpendicular to the line of flight, achieving separation without traveling into someone else's airspace, therefroe needing less separation on jumprun. When you have a twin otter full of two ways, it makes a big difference. Beiginning freeflyers have a tendency to backslide. They should try to face sideways to line of flight for the entire jump while they are learning. My two cents worth.

[billvon 2,426]

>A two way or three way is able to track perpendicular to the line of flight,
> achieving separation without traveling into someone else's airspace,
>therefroe needing less separation on jumprun.

A three way cannot have everyone track perpindicular to line of flight and still have separation at opening time. The geometry just doesn't work. If you have two people tracking at a 30 degree angle or something, then you have to track 3x farther to get the same separation - and there goes your extra spacing on jump run.

>They should try to face sideways to line of flight for the entire jump while
>they are learning.

Agreed there, and two-ways with a coach can track perpindicular to jump run. It's a bit more problematic for a low-time two way.

[kallend 1,644]

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>Why can't one person stay in the center?

Because then you don't get as much separation.

You do on, say, a 12 way if everyone spaces their track properly.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[JohnMitchell 14]

I knew some one would catch the three way thing. Yes you can't have a perfect perpindicular track with a three way, but I bias my track away from line of flight. I can keep my eye on the one extra person I may be "close" to, don't I really don't want to meet those folks in the group ahead or behind me on jump run. My wife has almost been taken out twice by insufficient spacing on jump run and once by a back sliding freefly novice. Tracking up or down the line of flight makes that even more likely to happen.

We need to track to get enough separation, but more is not neccessarily better, especially if you are getting into another group's airspace. That's why it isn't unsafe to have one person just stay in the middle on a three way. And if you want to do a bitchin' monster track out of a head down, you should know where the open sky is.

[kallend 1,644]

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I knew some one would catch the three way thing. Yes you can't have a perfect perpindicular track with a three way, but I bias my track away from line of flight. I can keep my eye on the one extra person I may be "close" to, don't I really don't want to meet those folks in the group ahead or behind me on jump run. My wife has almost been taken out twice by insufficient spacing on jump run and once by a back sliding freefly novice. Tracking up or down the line of flight makes that even more likely to happen.

We need to track to get enough separation, but more is not neccessarily better, especially if you are getting into another group's airspace. That's why it isn't unsafe to have one person just stay in the middle on a three way. And if you want to do a bitchin' monster track out of a head down, you should know where the open sky is.

In my limited experience, tracking too far is a less common fault than not tracking far enough.

If one person in a 3 way dumps in place, the other two need to track 300ft to achieve 300' of separation. If all three track at 120 degrees to each other, they only have to go 175 feet from the center to achieve the same separation, reducing the risk of encroaching another group's airspace.

A 7-way, on the other hand, has to track 300ft to achieve 300 ft separation if one dumps in place and the other six track away, but has to go more than 300ft from the center if all 7 track away.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[JohnMitchell 14]

***
In my limited experience, tracking too far is a less common fault than not tracking far enough.

If one person in a 3 way dumps in place, the other two need to track 300ft to achieve 300' of separation. If all three track at 120 degrees to each other, they only have to go 175 feet from the center to achieve the same separation, reducing the risk of encroaching another group's airspace.

A 7-way, on the other hand, has to track 300ft to achieve 300 ft separation if one dumps in place and the other six track away, but has to go more than 300ft from the center if all 7 track away.

/reply]I wouldn't say your experience is very limited, and your math skills are superb. Most people don't track very well, and that's why they don't get very far, either. Some don't even watch where they are going. With any group, there is also vertical separation to consider. Rare is the group that all open at the same altitude. Leaving a man in the middle lets one open higher. That is, however, a whole new argument. I still prefer to be 175 feet away form someone I'm watching than encroaching on the airspace of someone in freefall above me. While I agree with you that more distance equals more safety, in multiple group jumpruns, more distance in the wrong direction brings a new risk that needs to be managed.

[billvon 2,426]

>That is, however, a whole new argument. I still prefer to be 175 feet away
> form someone I'm watching than encroaching on the airspace of
>someone in freefall above me.

You will (in all likelihood) not be killed by the person you see; it is the person you don't see who will kill you. And if you lose sight of someone on a dive, someone who started out a foot from you, you are far more likely to run into them than someone 1000 feet away on a different dive. Which is why tracking from the center is taught as the best breakoff procedure, rather than tracking perpindicular to line of flight.

Take two scenarios. #1 - you are doing a 3 way and lose sight of one person. You track off from the center at the end. The other guy does the same thing. You have 360 degrees to choose from; the odds that he will choose the same radial as you are really low, roughly 2% if each person needs a 10 degree slice to be clear.

#2 - you are doing a 3 way and lose sight of one person. You track off perpindicular to jump run. You have two directions to choose from; the odds that the guy you can't see is tracking off in formation with you is now 50%.

>While I agree with you that more distance equals more safety, in multiple
>group jumpruns, more distance in the wrong direction brings a new risk
>that needs to be managed.

The time to ensure you have enough space between groups is before you leave the plane. Use your good judgement in the airplane to survive; that way you don't need your good tracking and dodging skills to survive. And if you screw up one of the two you still have the other to fall back on. Giving up on one before you even leave the airplane is dangerous, IMO. Why intentionally reduce your options?