cutaway query

[LannerFalcon 0]

'It appears that the jumper did not check or wait for main separation but simply pulled the cutaway, followed immediately by the reserve ripcord. The reserve then began to deploy, but tangled irretrievably with the main bag and lines. The Cypres fired some time after manual activation of the reserve. '

The above unfortunately relatest o a fatality in the incident forum. I find it quite confusing though---Should you wait to pull your reserve. I was always told to cut away and pull straightaway?? peel , punch, pull??

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Break now Jester!

[rainman 0]

With my very limited experience I think you're right, no waiting around after a cutaway.

If the components of your rig match each other (for instance PdF integrity risers on a PdF Atom container) this should not be a problem. The possible problem of reverse/integrity risers not releasing in a belly to earth position has been dealt with by moving the biggest of the three rings slightly higher on the shoulder.

I have the above described setup on my rig (no cutaways yet), and know many people in the Netherlands that have this setup. To the best of my knowledge there has never been a problem in The Netherlands related to integrity risers not releasing on a cutaway.



Hope this helps,

Rainman

[speedy 0]

If you cutaway from a bag locked canopy there is obviously not as much force being applied to the three ring system as when the main is at least partially inflated. That being said, the force being applied by an inflated pilot chute is normally sufficient to cause the 3-ring system to seperate.

What about a collapsed pilot chute? I dunno, but it may not be enough.

If you execute your emergency procedures high enough, there should be time to check that the main's risers have indeed seperated before you pull the reserve. I teach our students to cutaway, look over their shoulder to check the main is gone, then pull the reserve. This will also prevent over zealous students firing off their reserve before they have completed the cutaway. Of course when the malfunction is bag lock, time is short, so even though you may have time to check the main is gone, if it is still attached, you don't have much time to solve the problem. Altitude awarness is vital in such a situation, pulling the reserve too low will kill you. Pulling the reserve into a bag locked main might not.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[Hooknswoop 19]

On the tandem where I had a bag lock, I had to delay the reserve pull because the main was slow in leaving after pulling the cutaway handle.

If you do not have the time/altitude to delay after cutting away, you either pulled too low or rode a mal for too long.

Work pull altitudes in revere, starting at what al;titude you want to be under your reserve. Many people are surprised at how little time (or don't leave enough time) they leave themselves when they work the problem in reverse.

Derek

[JohnMitchell 14]

I teach our students to cutaway, look over their shoulder to check the main is gone, then pull the reserve. This will also prevent over zealous students firing off their reserve before they have completed the cutaway.

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I take it that your students have a separate cutaway and reserve handle. Ours have the SOS system, one handle does all, and an RSL as well. I don't think the problem is with slow 3-rings as much as pulling the handles out of sequence. I've had 2 high speed mals requiring cutaways, but never a true bag lock. Don't know of anyone personally who has had a baglock hang up during a cutaway. Anyone out there have that happen?

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[JohnMitchell 14]

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On the tandem where I had a bag lock, I had to delay the reserve pull because the main was slow in leaving after pulling the cutaway handle.


Derek

Was your RSL attached? That would be hairy if the RSL riser left and the other one didn't. How slow was it to leave and do you have any idea what caused it?

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Was your RSL attached?

No.

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would be hairy if the RSL riser left and the other one didn't.

Exactly why it wasn't attached.

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How slow was it to leave and do you have any idea what caused it?

Not real slowe, but noticably slower than froma partial mal. I went to pull the reserve, but stopped when I realized the main was taking it's sweet time leaving. Wasn't long at all, as I'm sure I was experiencing time-compression. I can only guess that the less drag of a bag lock and maybe the 3-ring maint hadn't been done in a while.

Derek

[riggerrob 561]

Not having read the original incidents forum ....
this is highly unlikely when you pull handles in the correct sequence.

It sounds more like the deceased pulled his reserve THEN cutaway.

I don't like to admit it, but during my last malfunction, I pulled cutaway and reserve handles simultaneously (related to a hard cutaway) and immediately found myself hanging under a fully inflated Amigo reserve.

If you analyze the SOS systems installed on thousands of student rigs, you will find that most students end up pulling both cutaway and reserve cables within a tenth of a second on each other. The difference is insignificant. The only reason we cut SOS ripcord cables longer is to accommodate those few stupid students who pull handles ridiculously slowly.

Waiting after cutting away is only relevant to CReW and photographers.
Far too many of the people who have cutaway and waited - until they got stable - before pulling their reserve ripcords are DEAD!
Even glancing at shoulders - ensure main risers have released - is a waste of time in 90% of cutaways. I may have practiced it on the ground, but in all of my malfunctions, the main risers disappeared long before I could focus on them.

Best policy is to cutaway and promptly pull reserve ripcord.

[PrairieDoug 0]

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Was your RSL attached? That would be hairy if the RSL riser left and the other one didn't.

I'm confused -- would've have thought that if anything the presence of an RSL would tend to delay or prevent riser release (due to added force required to extract reserve pin).

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I'm confused -- would've have thought that if anything the presence of an RSL would tend to delay or prevent riser release (due to added force required to extract reserve pin).

FI whatever caused the delay in the 3-rings releasing affected the non-RSL riser less and the RSL riser left and activated the reserve with the other 3-ring still attached, it could have created a main-reserve entanglement.

Derek

[mjosparky 3]

I believe that in this case there were reverse rises involved. Not enough drag to lift the risers off the shoulder and allow the rings to release.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[LannerFalcon 0]

Cheers people, so I think i'll stick then to what I know ..cut and pull. Thanks for the advice

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Break now Jester!

[gerrcoin 0]

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I was always told to cut away and pull straightaway?? peel , punch, pull??

This is the same as the training that I was given. However I bought the "Breakaway" safety video a while ago and noticed that on one of the sequences, the horse-shoe mal demo, the main risers did not release until the jumper (Billy Webber I think) cleared them manually. I don't know what equipment was used. It certainly made me think about my EP's. After that I added a "check risers" before "pull".
You just need to make sure that you drill your EP's until they are second nature. Any circumstance in which the 3 ring system does not release after a cutaway is going to be high speed, maybe at terminal velocity, and your time is scarce.
Edited To Add: I consulted an instructor and asked experienced jumpers at the DZ before changing my emergency drill, and then I practiced.