Questions from Gato the Newbie

[Gato 0]

Hey DZ Veterans -

After speaking with a few different people on the subject of the most common causes of injuries and fatalities, I have a couple of questions and observations I'd like to discuss. Please forgive any forthcoming ignorance, as I'm making my 1st SL jump in a couple of weeks, and this is only my third posting:

1) I was told that the majority of (accidents) happen to AFF-trained skydivers. The same person, a DZ owner, said that the originator of the AFF program did not, in fact, complete the system syllabus before he died. Does this mean that what we know as AFF is incomplete?

2) I was told by another skydiver that it's more important in the beginning phases of training to focus mainly on emergency procedures/exits and canopy flight skills, because free fall is "a gift from God." This person also told me that most people in this sport die under a perfectly operational canopy. Is this true?

Any wisdom you could offer will be most appreciated. I apologize if my last question offends anyone teaching AFF - I mean no disrepect. But I don't want to wait until I'm on my way to Earth under a ball of shit before I ask.

Yours,

Gato

T.I.N.S.

[Majaman 0]

Hi there.

Well I'm not exactly a veteran dispite my 19 yrs in the sport as I had a 15 year long pause in there. I have therefore done both the traditional course and AFF. There are pros and cons with both, but I do not believe AFF is incomplete, it is just a different way of teaching basically the same things.

I believe that I was a better canopy pilot after the traditional course than after AFF, mainly because it is more jumps and I think that AFF makes you better in free fall. This is my personal experience, anyway.

You may have point, at least regarding accidents under functional canopies. As a student you are forced to use large docile canopies and are therefore less likely to injure yourself. As the conventional course require many more jumps, you have more canopy training before you go out and buy your first brand new VX81. ;)

Just my 0.02$

--------------------------------
Back when I used to jump...

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

1) I was told that the majority of (accidents) happen to AFF-trained skydivers.

2) This person also told me that most people in this sport die under a perfectly operational canopy. Is this true?

These days most people are trained using a variant of AFF, so yes, I'm sure they're the bulk of the fatalities too. Static line is far less common now.

Look at the fatalities databases, both here and the one at (skydivingfatalities.info now?). I think you'll find a lot of people dying under a good canopy, but I don't believe it's over 50%. It doesn't really change the implication though - canopy training is important, and frequently given short shrift in the training process.

If static line at your DZ means that someone is observing you on all your jumps, then the higher number of instructor training jumps makes it better than an AFF program. If, otoh, they only watch you till you deploy, you're no better off unless you actively practice in the air and ask questions on the ground.

don't worry about SL vs AFF - you've made a choice and it should serve you fine. I never intended to become a student when I did my AFF-1 jump, but it hooked me in.

[PhreeZone 15]

AFF had its origins in the 1980's. The training program has ben refined, tested and further developed sinces its inception and is a very stableand mature teaching program today. It has different objectives then the traditional Static line, but they both have the same end goal of making someone a safe skydiver.

The injury stats are varied and are twisted to fit the need of the user. Once you get beyond about 25-30 jumps it no longer matters what method of instruction the student had since they all are at the same knowledge base at that point.

The trend in recent years had been death under a full and complete canopy but this year there seems to be some bucking in that trend and more people are instead dieing from other causes then the low turn issue of the previous years.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Gato 0]

Hey Guys -

Thanks for your insight - I have always been wary of salesmanship and statistics being used to skew my viewpoint.
The main reason I wanted to know this stuff is because I want to be a safe and LIVE skydiver. It just seems to me that much, much more time is spent under canopy than in FF, and I'm interested in how that translates into survivability, if that makes any sense.
I'm so glad you all are here to speak with me about this stuff - my wife is growing tired of listening to my recent Dropzone.com anecdotes.

Yours,

Gato

T.I.N.S.

[Reginald 0]

Quote

1) I was told that the majority of (accidents) happen to AFF-trained skydivers. The same person, a DZ owner

Can i guess that Static Line is the only form of instruction he offers/is capable of offering?

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[Gato 0]

Hey Reginald -

You guessed it - the SL Course progresses into what is called AFP (Advanced Freefall Progression). It's supposed to make use of the AFF syllabus, with more detail and individual attention.
Let me stress again at this point that I don't really know shit other than what other people have told me and what I've read online. I am JAFO right now. But I'm no whuffo . . . .
I will say that among the few USPA dropzones in the Kansas City area, this is the least expensive path to an A rating I've found. I've heard from a few people about how they've had to retake AFF levels and had to pay the same amount as the one they failed. I wouldn't want to think of that as wasted money (You get to make the jump, after all) but if I'm going to tank on a couple of jumps, I'd rather it didn't cost me $200 per mistake, you know?

Any recommendations?

Yours,

Gato

T.I.N.S.

[cocheese 0]

As with any avaition sport, all of it is important because there are a million ways to die in this sport.
You can never have enough info. Keep asking questions if you have them.

[NickDG 23]

Ken Coleman was killed in the crash of a hot air balloon as a passenger (they flew into power lines) in 1979, but the original 7-jump AFF syllabus he created was already completed. He'd been working on it, in Florida, since 1977. He received a waiver from the USPA to begin making "harness hold" jumps in 1979 and was just about to present the program to USPA, hoping to get overall approval, when he was killed. So while there have been refinements to the program over the years, and some DZs have added an eighth Level (usually a hop & pop), it was not left un-finished.

Usually, a DZ will use whatever training method matches their staffing levels. It's hard to have a full blown AFF program if you don't have a number of experienced AFF Instructors. The aircraft available also enters the equation. Reciprocating type Cessna aircraft are better suited to static line jumping while the cabin class turbine aircraft like the Otters are better for AFF.

So basically we had two programs, static line and AFF, and that served us well for many many years, also, in the early-nineties the tandem program going in full swing. There was a small explosion of new jumpers and new DZs and all of a sudden there was a bit of money to be made. That old joke that it costs a fortune to make a fortune wasn't exactly true anymore.

In any case there was a shortage of qualified Jumpmasters and Instructors. Most good AFF Instructors would only spend a summer or two stuffed into the back of a Cessna and sweating before heading off to a bigger drop zone. So what happened is the smaller DZO has to work with what they had. So we started seeing "hybrid" programs. Changing anything about the way students are taught was like pulling teeth. But by this time we had several ways of making a first jump. There was Tandem, AFF and IAD. So some DZOs began combining these programs.

This mix and match system produced tandem to free fall. That's - depending on how you want to interpret the rules – 3 to 5 tandems and then straight to single jumpmaster AFF. Now all a DZO needed is one Cessna, one pilot, one tandem Instructor, one AFF Instructor, the gear, some land, and he's in business . . .

In the end all this is born of efficiency, and not so much, for turning out heads-up students. The TLOs on student tandem jumps aren't that difficult in a training wheels sense. And I've been on single jump master AFF jumps, the student's first off tandem, that weren't much fun at all. And they were starting solo canopy control at the same time.

Your particular DZO promoting static line by knocking AFF is disturbing as it is unnecessary, especially in front of you, the student. However, if you had went and made your static line jump, that very day, you would have had a ball. We are real good at first jumps, no matter how you make them. If you have problems, like most continuing students will, they show up during your progression and here's where the quality of the instruction can make or break you.

You may have seen a recent airing on TV of the Army's HALO program; basically it's their "freefall" school and pretty similar to a civilian AFF program. But, there's one big difference, if a student can't stop spinning, or can't exit stable, or has canopy control problems, the instructors tell them to pack and get on the bus . . . Man, that's a cushy Instructor job. (Yes, I understand why they do it that way.)

The rest of us have to fix those problems. And frankly some Instructors are better at it than others. But most of us started skydiving in a vacuum and with a certain amount of serendipity to it. You knew somebody, or you picked up the yellow pages, and all of sudden there you were practicing PLFs. The fact you are coming armed with all this "internet" information probably hurts more than helps you and nowadays, "You read that on DZ.com, didn't you . . ." is now part of most AFF first jump courses.

Oh, and BTW, Ken Coleman's AFF program was descendent of Bob Sinclair's "harness hold jumps" done in the 1960s. It didn't catch on then – as Bob was just too ahead of his time . . .

NickD BASE 194

[Gato 0]

Hey Guys -

Thanks for all your input and perspectives. Let me say that it was never my intention to rip on AFF or those who teach it. That is why I told you all that those were others' opinions and views (from face to face meetings, not DZ.com posts) and only the resulting subsequent questions were mine.

As I stated in my first post, I am ignorant, a newbie, and a greenhorn.

I want to join your sport, and I want to be as safe and alive for as long as possible. I want to make smart, informed, and timely choices. I am not a 19-year-old adrenaline junkie - on the contrary, I'm 39 and deeply aware of my mortality and my lack of ability to heal quickly. I don't have too many choices for training here in KC, but I'll consider everything you all have said. And then I'll listen to who trains me.

With deepest respect to you all,

Gato

T.I.N.S.

[jdunbar 0]

I hope you enjoy your training and welcome to the sport!

[Gato 0]

Thank you, jdunbar - see you up there!

Big-ups,

Gato

T.I.N.S.