canopy guru's answer this

[nbryant 0]

I am the guy who jumped the 129 Crossfire 1 at a wingloading of 1.43 (I lost a little weight). I would first like to say that I have been jumping a 1.4 wingloading since I've had 32 jumps. Probably not the best idea however, I didn't know any better and it's what I've learned on. That being said I stand up every landing, and land exactly where I want to everytime. Secondly, I am a very safe skydiver and canopy pilot who takes all conditions and variables into consideration before every jump. I am not some careless idiot looking to end up in a body bag.

Before I jumped the Crossfire, I received canopy coaching from 2 CPC competitors, one of them was a recent winner. After witnessing me land numerous times and witnessing me land the crossfire they both said that I had great landings. I am very confident that I can land the Crossfire all day long in perfect conditions. It is the imperfect conditions that I am concerned with. After talking to several D class jumpers and the DZO I agreed to go back to my Sabre 135.

I want to make this very clear. You can ask anyone at my DZ and they will tell you that I am a very saftey concious and conservative skydiver & canopy pilot. I never put anyone in danger at anytime, especially not myself. I would never jump something that I couldn't handle. However, I plan to be in the sport for a long time and I have no problem slowing down my canopy progression.

I would just like to point out that there is an article on here outlining the manevuers that one needs to be able to perform with precision before downsizing. Being that I have only downsized twice, I was able to perform every technique outlined in that article with precision every time with every canopy I've jumped.

So for all that think I am a careless idiot, I read everything I can about canopy flight, I have been receiving weekly canopy coaching from CPC competitors since I graduated AFF, and I did ask experienced canopy pilots who know my abilities if the downsize would be safe and appropriate for me before I ever put the canopy in my rig.

[bigway 4]

Congratulations for saving your own life.

I dont think a 135 is good for your jump numbers but i am just glad you are not on the crossfire.

Good on you for listening to advice.

I am sure you are very safe, we are all very safe. Does not make imperfect conditions safe as you say.


Good on you mate.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[78RATS 0]

Quote

I stand up every landing, and land exactly where I want to everytime.

Hang around brother. Sooner or later you'll have to stick that bad boy somewhere tight, off the DZ, while the wind is coming out of the ... which way is the wind blowing????

Anyway. Glad you took a step back. Keep safe.

Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why

[iamsam 0]

Please let me know which DZ let you jump @ 1.4 with 30 something jumps, I'd like to ask them if they'll let me fly a wingsuit.

but what do I know

[nbryant 0]

I'll tell you if you tell me which DZ let you jump a wingsuit at 78 jumps. However, I must point out that I highly doubt that they knew what my wingloading was and I never gave them any reason to question my wingloading. In fact, no one questioned me jumping or landing the crossfire until this forum was created.

[iamsam 0]

At I think all the DZ's I've jumped at somebody would of inspected kit and/or asked about canopy size for a newly licensed skydiver. I assumed your DZ must of known. I would of thought if they had, they wouldn't of let you jump it, for a reason.

But you did, and I'm not questioning you jumping or landing anything, if you have experenced canopy pilots mentoring and monitoring your progression their judgement is better than mine. People should do as they like, as long as they're safe.

I haven't flown a wingsuit at 78 jumps but if at 178 I feel I'm ready and find an instructor whos opinion I trust who agrees to take me then lets go.

good luck

but what do I know

[bigway 4]

Any instructor who takes you on a wingsuit jump at 178 jumps is not trustworthy. LOL

I think there is a rule for it to be 200 jumps in the states and 500 in the uk.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[bodypilot1 0]

Quote

I think there is a rule for it to be 200 jumps in the states

No, it's only a recommendation.

Be safe
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[bigway 4]

Understand

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[Pulse 0]

Hate to say it. But incident reports are loaded with 'safe' and 'conservative' skydivers.

I don't know you, but I think there is such a thing as being too conservative.

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

[dragon2 0]

Quote

Hate to say it. But incident reports are loaded with 'safe' and 'conservative' skydivers.

I don't know you, but I think there is such a thing as being too conservative.

I think that a "safe and conservative jumper" meaning never do hp landings etc is in more danger because if something does happen it happens way faster than you're used to (faster than normal flight) and you have no idea how to deal with it.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Pulse 0]

EXACTLY!

Bad mouth swooping and hook turns all you want. There is much to be learned from them.

I've always looked at a good canopy-pilot as being aggressive, but conservative-minded. Understanding that staying 'safe' may (and probably will) require not-so-conservative flying skills.

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

[phoenixlpr 0]

Quote

Bad mouth swooping and hook turns all you want. There is much to be learned from them.

I've always looked at a good canopy-pilot as being aggressive, but conservative-minded. Understanding that staying 'safe' may (and probably will) require not-so-conservative flying skills.

But groups have losses. I saw plaster on 2 persons last year, each of their group.

They have different level of experience, but they have their risks.

Quote

I do not swoop, because I don't like hard landings....

From a "conservative" skydiver.

[Pulse 0]

Yup, there are the losses. One of my favorite quotes that drives the point home comes from an NTSB official:

"Gravity is constant and speed kills. Together they are particularly destructive."

How I read this? SKYDIVING IS DANGEROUS.

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

[nbryant 0]

First of all, I'm not a newly licensed skydiver. I just never really cared about keeping up a logbook, or getting a license. I worked at the DZ and I never really had a chance or desire to go to another DZ because we have an incredible plane, great landing areas, and I was at my DZ working every weekend.

Being that I worked there, I'm sure that no one questioned my wingloading because they all assumed I have been skydiving for a longtime or something. Probably because I primarily jump with the experienced jumpers at the DZ. I don't keep a logbook, and I jump at least 3 loads a day so I'm sure they just assumed I have a bunch of jumps. I also have a lot of tunnel time so I've always been able to complete complicated dives or freefly since my first few jumps. That probably fostered the assumptions of a high jump number and I never volunteered information because I was afraid that something like this forum would happen.

Before this forum, my abilities or judgement was never questioned. After this forum, I've been called an idiot, told I have no respect for the sport or those that came before me, I'm a incident report waiting to happen, etc... I would like everyone, to realize that in this case, everyone made judgements about my motives, experience level, and my level of respect for experienced jumpers' advice. This all started because someone (who is still my close friend) with 500-700 jumps who flys a wingloading of 1 to 1 had a problem with my canopy selection. The most ironic thing is that the same day he started this forum he complimented me on my landing the Crossfire 129. It wasn't until he asked what kind of canopy I jumped that he became upset.

I'm not saying that he was wrong to cause such an uproar, however I am very disappointed at how my fellow skydivers reacted, and the way they expressed their thoughts of me. The biggest lesson I've learned from this forum, is how quick you guys are to judge and call names from a simple one line question. Not one of you have ever seen me fly a canopy, or take an off DZ landing, or avoid those AFF students that love get in your way on approach.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Quote

How I read this? SKYDIVING IS DANGEROUS

I would not narrow down to skydiving only, but it might not happen during yoga....

[champu 1]

Quote

Before this forum, my abilities or judgement was never questioned. After this forum, I've been called an idiot, told I have no respect for the sport or those that came before me, I'm a incident report waiting to happen, etc... I would like everyone, to realize that in this case, everyone made judgements about my motives, experience level, and my level of respect for experienced jumpers' advice. This all started because someone (who is still my close friend) with 500-700 jumps who flys a wingloading of 1 to 1 had a problem with my canopy selection. The most ironic thing is that the same day he started this forum he complimented me on my landing the Crossfire 129. It wasn't until he asked what kind of canopy I jumped that he became upset.

While I'm glad to hear that your progression has involved coaching, my statement about flying a Xfire-129 at 150 jumps still stands, it is an incident report waiting to happen. It's good to hear you've decided to hold off.

I also got a sabre-135 at about 30 jumps. (just as you said, not recommended, but I'm not going to get hung up on it) My landings were always excellent, I took canopy control courses to learn all I could, I was a very conservative and safety minded jumper, and by the time I had 150 jumps I was quite comfortable under it. I'm sure I could have very easily handled a Xfire-129 at that time in good conditions, but I can't tell you how happy I am that I didn't.

Day to day landing in various sub-optimal conditions (which is probably putting it lightly) and learning more and more aggressive maneuvers under that sabre-135 over the next 450 jumps lead to countless mistakes on my part, but none of them resulted in any injuries, just dusty jumpsuits. I can think of at least two occasions where I would have definitely broken myself had I been flying a higher performance canopy.

[Pulse 0]

I can definitely see your point in regards to how you were treated. This is not an excuse but also one must realize that there is a certain amount of, "Here's another one..." when someone starts pointing out how good, how conservative, and how safe they are. I might just be speaking for myself and I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying that's how it is...for me anyway. But I don't think I called you an idiot or anything like that.

When talking about canopy issues it seems that we focus too much on fatalities. I mean it's easy to start gtting the idea that either you're fine or your dead. But there is a large gap in between. My first canopy was a Raven III (249 sq ft 7-cell/F111) I weighed 160-pounds at the time. Yup...a wing loading of about 0.75:1. I put about 200 jumps on that canopy before downsizing.
For all the talking we do about having a smaller canopy for turbulence, stability, better flare, yaddayadda. Guess what? I never sat out a day of jumping because of the size of my canopy. I jumped in conditions just like everyone else. I also had the bonus of not having to sit out any weekends because of anything even as small as a twisted ankle. I made the same mistakes my friends did and maybe a few more. Yet when they had an ice pack on their ankle or went to the hospital, I cussed the dirt on my suit but was still able to pack and get on another load.
Something else new jumpers don't have the chance to do when flying such high wing loadings is experiment. It's wise to learn 'high performance' flying on lower performance canopies and then move on simply because of the margin for error. This goes for all of aviation. Most pilots learn to fly aerobatics in Decathalons or something like that before moving onto the Extras, Pitts, and Sukhois. Transferring known techniques to another parachute is a much more prudent approach. Note: I'm not saying it's not without it's risks. But once again, skydiving is dangerous.
Another part of this experimentation is just simply being able to throw the canopy around a little. I always jokingly called it 'confidence building manuevers'. We used to have a ball 'trashing out' our canopies. Hold the toggles until they 'horseshoe', let one side up to get it into a flat spin, things like that.

http://www.pulsevisuals.com/video/details/stallram-air.html

Today I don't know of ANY A-licensed jumpers who do this sort of thing and at the wingloadings I see them flying I wouldn't recommend it. (I started running into 'issues' with recovery when my wing loading got to about 1.3:1.) Believe it or not, you learn a ton from this stuff. Also, it's just plain fun!

Today I fly a Jedi and a Velocity. So, while I can appreciate the draw towards highly loaded parachutes. I honestly don't believe the same learning/experience curve applies.

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

[orbitjunkie 0]

ok folks I think it is time to set some things straight.
First..I started this thread to get some facts and ideas about the the crossfire and the wingloading and have appreciated some of the RATIONAL comments on the canopy/exp level. I am not mr canopy expert but I felt this situation was into the high risk area.

second Iwas in no way shape manner or form trying to personnaly attack an individual merely address a situation

third our DZ is not unsafe.. and neither is mr bryant!
just because nothing was said right off the bat doesn't mean anything. any of us go go out and get an hp canopy and get a few jumps on it before any questions came up. nothing was said before this forum because the situation was not in the light. once in the light I think we all arrived at a fine safe INFORMED decision. lets put a couple hundred more jumps under our belt then tackle the hp decision.
I did compliment mr bryant on a fine landing 'hey man good landing what ya got there?..'now I am a coach so when I got the response a red flag went up in my head..uh oh I started this forum to help you (mr bryant) arrive at your own..RATIONAL decision..which you did and denotes maturity.
a note on myself here..I work offshore and spend 3 to 5 weeks out at any one time and then a partial weekend in..so I raised the "red flag" at the instant I had knowledge of this. This makes it a SAFE DZ we WE ARE WATCHING.
Lastly I have 700+ jumps and fly a Diablo 150 @ 1.34 with about 100 jumps on it (would like to know what you guru's think of that wing loading)
I feel that that is about an average progression. I am smart enough to I am too old and slow a learner to fly the crossfire 129 right now perhaps one day, but for now lets master the canopies we have (and 100 jumps is not enough) and when we have done that..then move down, but move down with the skills, knowledge and attitude required to acheive the next level
Incidently I recently aquired a coupla pd 190's and have a few jumps on them each. you'd be suprised how difficult it is to go from 150 tapered 7 cell zp to 190 f111 9 cell..I have a long way to go to master the pd 190
Orbitjunkie

[nbryant 0]

Just so everyone knows, Orbitjunkie took me from being so scared I couldn't even exit by myself (after I graduated AFF!) to teaching me last weekend that just because I could get to the large formation first doesn't mean I should dock an unstable formation(although he did get pissed and tracked off when other people docked on the unstable formation). I thanked him last weekend in person for his concern and I want to thank him again on DZ.com