From the USPA website:

[MikeForsythe 0]

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Any intelligent business would do the same thing.

I don't agree as there were other options.

Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is!

[Amazon 7]

I just dont see them as being good for the members at this point...

Disband... dissappear there are other insurance alternatives out there that would welcome the memb ers as a group.

[DSE 3]

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I just dont see them as being good for the members at this point...

Disband... dissappear there are other insurance alternatives out there that would welcome the memb ers as a group.

Find one. I tried.

[airdvr 197]

In all of these posts I'm uncertain how the USPA is hurting the general membership. I agree it may be a little weak on representing the general membership but I never met anyone who gave a rat's ass about who their RD was. Not saying it's ideal...few thinge are.

Someone please explain how Skyride has a negative effect on the general membership...real examples, not philosophical ones like "we look bad in the eyes of the people SR abused". In the end I beleive the SR problem was a DZO problem, not one for the general membership.

I just don't get it. We jump from far superior aircraft than 20 years ago. The equipment we use...there's just no comparison...the FAA pretty much let's us do our thing without much intervention...DZ's offer so much more now. What do you people want now?

Would you really have wanted USPA to fight to the bitter end? Too many "what if's" in that scenario, including "what if your dues were $100 per year?"

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[ducktape 0]

what's being over looked here is that Skyride is screwing it's internet customers by making promises and charging even more money for bad waether, next load stuff. Any of us fun jumps should know that the problem should lie with the groups like the Better Business Bearue or Consumers Groups or the credit card companies that wihich the monies are exchanged with, If they provide revenue for the DZ without a cost in advertizing then it is a good thing for DZ's, It is a good thing for fun jumps beacuse it helps fill the phane, If the customer's of skyride are dumb enough to pay money for good weather insurance or next load BS. Then they don't have enough sense to know how the world works. Take all of our negitive work it to our postive, as fun jumper it does cost us a thing! Business is Business
Keep the planes flying, land , do it again! (sorry about the spelling all written before 2nd cup of coffee

[DougH 270]

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If they provide revenue for the DZ without a cost in advertizing then it is a good thing for DZ's, It is a good...

Wrong! Typical skyride drivel! Why do we have to keep hearing these lame ass arguments about what skyride does that is benificial to skydiving?

Skyride does not advertise, they do not put ads on TV, they don't have a Skyride Blimp, they don't purchase radio slots, they don't cold call. Nothing that they do can be construed as advertising.


They have a passive web pressence that funnels people who are already looking for skydives away from the dz's website. Website are not advertising.

Those customers searching for a skydive in CT would have found one of the two actual DZ websites in the state. They were going to skydive long before they found a skyride fake website.

They didn't sell jack shit, they intercepted a person who was already going to be a customer.

Skyride does dick for the dzo, unless of course you want to be the scumbag dzo who takes skyride when no one else in the state does; and then you are a theif. Skyride does even less for the fun jumper!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[davelepka 4]

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If they provide revenue for the DZ without a cost in advertizing then it is a good thing for DZ's,

As pointed out before, they do not advertise, they simply snipe web-based customers, who are already looking for a DZ website.

I just want to add that there is indeed a cost. In addition to their bogus 'extras' that they charge customers for, Skyride pays the DZ less than the market price for the tandems they sell.

I'm not sure of the actual figures, but I've heard it's anywhere from $25 to $40 per.

[ducktape 0]

the web is the current phone book, so the idiot who has the best ad, usally gets the most calls, plain and simple, or more bang for the buck, plain business by rule, if the dz's advertized more or up their web's then there would not be the skyride business either way the is money out, and i guess that somebody is making it! to bad beacuse if i had the idea i would have done it. as apopsed to writing about the good the bad and ulgy, point was if the DZ's are not going to try to fill the phanes then some one else will. shame on the DZ's as a fun jumper i like to have the plane up as much as possible in a day this give more time with other fun jumper. I say keep our uspa money out of skyride yes, focus on tring to keep our jumps fun, our insurance low, and our sport growing one way or another!

[davelepka 4]

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I just dont see them as being good for the members at this point...

Disband... dissappear there are other insurance alternatives out there that would welcome the memb ers as a group.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Find one. I tried.

I wonder what portion of the membership dues goes toward the insurance policy?

What if it's 50%? All we would need is for half of the membership to drop the USPA, and join into a group insurance policy.

If we could get more than half, the yearly cost would be reduced per memeber. If we had more control over the policy, members could choose a deductible in order to lower their premiums. I'd take the risk of a $1000 deductible if it would lower my premiums.

If you think about it, the insurance is the real reason that DZs require membership. I think that DZs would allow you to jump without a membership provided you had adequate coverage in place.

There appears to be a business opportunity for an insurance agent here. If coverage could be made available outside the USPA, I wonder how many people would take a pass on that crappy magazine, and just get the insurance?

If the agent really wanted to seal the deal, all they have to do is cut a deal with Skydiving magazine to offer 50% a susciption to everyone who buys a policy. Done deal.

[davelepka 4]

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the web is the current phone book, so the idiot who has the best ad, usally gets the most calls, plain and simple

How would you feel if you opened the phone book as discoverd ads for five or six DZs in the area, only to later find that those DZs don't actually exist?

Would that be the 'best' ad?

How about you call those 'DZs', and they continue to represent themselves as actual entities?

What if you found out they don't even operate one actual DZ in the area, and are just a booking service who are going to charge you more than you would pay be just dealing directly with an actual DZ?

Do you really think this sounds like a good business idea? You would have done this if you thought of it first?

You think this is helping the sport grow?

[DougH 270]

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the web is the current phone book, so the idiot who has the best ad, usally gets the most calls, plain and simple, or more bang for the buck, plain business by rule, if the dz's advertized more or up their web's then there would not be the skyride business either way the is money out, and i guess that somebody is making it! to bad beacuse if i had the idea i would have done it. as apopsed to writing about the good the bad and ulgy, point was if the DZ's are not going to try to fill the phanes then some one else will. shame on the DZ's as a fun jumper i like to have the plane up as much as possible in a day this give more time with other fun jumper. I say keep our uspa money out of skyride yes, focus on tring to keep our jumps fun, our insurance low, and our sport growing one way or another!

Yay, more drivel!

Yeah I can tell you are really on the ball with this whole business and "phane" thing. MBA from Harvard?

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If they provide revenue for the DZ without a cost in advertizing then it is a good thing for DZ's...

Please reread what you started off saying in this conversation, and think for a second...

You claim that skyride is providing revenue with no advertising expense for the dz. If the internet is the new yellow pages, and dropzones already have take the "advertising expense" of putting up a web presence then how the fawk is skyride providing revenue "without a cost in advertising" Please explain how reduced revenue due to the booking fee is free of "advertising expense".

Please explain how skyride is helping fun jumpers. Please explain how skyride fills the "phanes" to a greater extent than the dzo would have.

Shame on the dzo? More like shame on the makers of lead paint.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[ducktape 0]

if i ran a dz ok i would be pissed! or even mad at myself that i allowed my company to accept less money on a tandem because i didn't catch the business that some one else did, some one who came up with the tools or used the tools before i did again shame on the DZO's who donot market their business properly, But as a mere fun jumper who's true enjoyment tis plunging toward the earth with other fun jumpers and have to only spend 60.00 ayear for the insurance to do this, i think that the USPA should not be involed with skyride, DZO's should wipe the BS off their faces, figure out how to retain what skyride has taken from them, go after it.
as for the fools who spend their money on skyride and complain about the fee's, shame on them for not doing their own research. we are in an inforamation time any thing you want to know is available via this wonder media we are presently dicking over!

[davelepka 4]

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shame on the DZO's who donot market their business properly

That's a shitty thing to say. The internet is a growing, changing, and emerging market. I guess the DZOs should spend less time packing tandem/student reserves, or maintaining the aircraft, and more time online, right?

It's just like e-bay. it started off as a good idea, but it's value has diminished as a result of the scams, and sniping.

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as for the fools who spend their money on skyride and complain about the fee's, shame on them for not doing their own research. we are in an inforamation time any thing you want to know is available via this wonder media we are presently dicking over!

So you're suggesting that the only customers we should want are the ones who are web savvy?

Besides, Skyride is a con. In a well run con, the victim either never finds out about the con, or finds out after it's too late to do anything about it. Obviously Skyride is running a good con, or we wouldn't be so concerned with it.


You seem to want to put the blame on the DZOs and the customers for all of this. What about the crooks running Skyride? What should they be held accountable for?

[ducktape 0]

ok here is for the really simple minded people(typing slow so you can keep up) if you do a job for a fee.or paycheck,Why would you do it for less, beacuse you missed something or your business is less than you had or you have missed the boat in get what is your's by going after the market that is available to you, Shame on the people who put up our planes, Shame on the people who will not do their reseach before zipping the credit card via the internet. what i would care about is how we as the fun jumping society keep our jump tickets low, our insurace low, and our skies safe!

[DSE 3]

Can't agree w/you.
Skyride is unethical. Skyride runs a dirty business. Skyride gives our sport a bad name by their actions within the public view of our sport.
However, that's subjective.
A convincing objective argument vs the emotional opinion however, would be a difficult task, IMO, and is the reason that the USPA was wise enough to walk away from a battle that would be costly, and even if they won, would drain the coffers of the organization.
Most anyone of intelligence agrees that Skyride is a bad apple in the skydiving barrel. However, how does the USPA convince anyone (objectively) that Skyride is unsafe, doesn't follow USPA rules, or is not promoting the sport? I don't think they can, not reasonably nor efficiently, IMO. The cost of convincing a court or even a mediator would (on the surface) appear to be astronomical.

Dave, I actually spoke to a few agencies that specialize in unique insurance policies. None of them would touch it for the mentioned 30k members at 10.00 each per year. I'd be surprised if that much of the membership due goes to insurance, but used that as the benchmark value. One guy that I deal w/ regularly on multi-million $$ coverages commented that "you've got a 'what-a-guy-I-trust-you-with-my-wife deal."
It's quite possible the USPA has reserves that may not even use claimant monies, or that they underwrite claims to keep the rates down, with escrow funds.

[DougH 270]

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ok here is for the really simple minded people(typing slow so you can keep up)

Am I the only one here who sees the extreme irony of this comment?

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[davelepka 4]

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I actually spoke to a few agencies that specialize in unique insurance policies. None of them would touch it for the mentioned 30k members at 10.00 each per year

Did you offer them $20 a year? $25? There's a big difference between $300k and $600k or $750k.

At this point anything less than $35 or $40 and you could count me in.

Does anyone know what company underwrites the policy? They're obviously comfortable with the risk, and might be willing to write though another agent if the money was right.

Does anyone know the dollar amounts for paying the claims over a year? Is there a limit per occurance? Can we self insure with an escrow account and a couple of administrators?

I'd feel comfortable with couple of insurance agents and a couple of lawyers (all skydivers) watching over the fund.

[airdvr 197]

Please explain how skyride is helping fun jumpers. Please explain how skyride fills the "phanes" to a greater extent than the dzo would have.

Shame on the dzo? More like shame on the makers of lead paint

I agree with everything you say. But as a jumper and member of the USPA how is it hurting you? If you're not a DZO why does it bother you so much? Isn't this a DZO problem and their responsibility to cure?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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the web is the current phone book, so the idiot who has the best ad, usally gets the most calls, plain and simple

How would you feel if you opened the phone book as discoverd ads for five or six DZs in the area, only to later find that those DZs don't actually exist?

Would that be the 'best' ad?

How about you call those 'DZs', and they continue to represent themselves as actual entities?

What if you found out they don't even operate one actual DZ in the area, and are just a booking service who are going to charge you more than you would pay be just dealing directly with an actual DZ?

Do you really think this sounds like a good business idea? You would have done this if you thought of it first?

You think this is helping the sport grow?

Ummm, that sounds like the Macon phone book.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Sorry to be blunt, but that is a messed up way to think. So you are telling me you are happy to let any wrong go as long as it does not effect you directly? Do you draw the line somewhere? Would you help someone that was being mugged or just walk off and say,"Damn, glad that was not me".

I'm just trying to understand your belief structure.

[ducktape 0]

sorry had a get reply but the wireless bumped me off(so my fight is with the phone provider) back to subject at hand, what can we do is what i'm read form our own insurer? if it is so difficult to get 14 jump tickets together to then try to get 14 jumpers in the air together wow how are you going to reinvent the wheel of the uspa. our membership and our time spend having fun is at a very low cost. what skyride does or does not do is a fight for those who make money in the industry. we pay for insurance and a voice concerning where and how we jump. If you run the business then it is your choice wheather you accept skyride or not. we can focus on our ablity
to jump where we see fit. that should be our goal.

[airdvr 197]

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Sorry to be blunt, but that is a messed up way to think. So you are telling me you are happy to let any wrong go as long as it does not effect you directly? Do you draw the line somewhere? Would you help someone that was being mugged or just walk off and say,"Damn, glad that was not me".

I'm just trying to understand your belief structure.

My belief structure knows when I can change something and when I can't. Would I walk away from someone being mugged? Depends on if the mugger has a gun or a knife. I certainly wouldn't walk away and forget about it. The least I could do is call 911. But I'm not gonna get shot or knifed to save some poor sole I don't even know. And no one can say any different unless you're in the situation.

It's amazing that I can post things on here that are contradictory and people start questioning my character, values, and morals. I don't agree with what SKyride is doing but I also know I really don't have anything to bitch about. It's not hurting my business and unless you're a DZO it's not hurting yours.

If you google "tandem +new york" the first 2 sites that come up are The Ranch and Above the Pocono's. Those DZ's pay, let me repeat, pay google to have their sites come up. If I do the same search for South Carolina I get SKydive Long Island and Thrill Planet (aka Skyride). There are no less than 3 DZ's in SC. WHy doesn't their site come up? Because they haven't paid. My point is if they want to compete they most certainly can. And it's not all that expensive to do. I pay around $3 per click for my website.

I find it incredible that people will bitch and moan about something but do little to fix it when the fix is simple. There's a dropzone in most every state. SR advertises in most every state. Step up to the plate and fight for the business if it's that important to you. Post your tandem prices on your website and give the poor suckers out there a chance to compare. If DZO's did that and the idiots still bought off of SR than I have no simpathy.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[CSpenceFLY 1]

And you're also in the "buyer beware" group also. What a surprise.

Let the customer compare what? The truth to the lies that are designed to lead the business away from the true business.

I guess since this is not your problem there is really no since in you being here to state your opinion.

[pilotdave 0]

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shame on the DZO's who donot market their business properly

That's a shitty thing to say.

For the most part, I agree with him. The fact that skyride is still in business, which in my opinion is hurting the sport, is the fault of the DZOs that accept their certificates and nobody else. The DZOs are to blame (along with the crooks at skyride themselves).

Those DZOs could take the high road, but they choose not to. They could probably market themselves more successfully if they spent a fraction of the money they lose to skyride on advertising.

I don't know of any blind and deaf DZOs, so there aren't any DZOs that can claim ignorance to what Skyride is all about. They know who they are dealing with.

Dave

[bozo 0]

[reply. But I'm not gonna get shot or knifed to save some poor sole I don't even know.
It's amazing that I can post things on here that are contradictory and people start questioning my character, values, and morals..