ISP

[peek 20]

Quote

Gary, turn your private messages on and I will be glad to give you at least two examples of major turbine dropzones which teach seven-level AFF and then "set them free".

I turned off those messages because I was getting a message from dz.com telling me I had a private message, then I had to log on to read the message, and it sure seems like a convoluted way to communicate. I have my email address in my profile.

I would love to hear about those drop zones that do that. Now, the question is, if they were asked if they were just turning students loose after 7 levels, what would they say? (Could be considered a rhetorical question.)

And the other question would be how they are getting from that point to a license, since very little of the "A" license proficiency card could be filled out in just those jumps.


On another subject, your first response to the original poster was about handouts given to students in addition to what is in the SIM.

We are interested in what you use and why. Something not explained well enough in the SIM? Additional info related to your particular DZ?

[billvon 2,434]

Gary - go into "edit profile" then "user profile" then uncheck the boxes that say "Send Private Message notification via e-mail" and "Send reply notification checked by default". That should cut down on the annoying emails but allow you to receive PM's.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Quote

And the other question would be how they are getting from that point to a license, since very little of the "A" license proficiency card could be filled out in just those jumps.

Pencil-whipping it, pure and simple. There are plenty of dropzones out there that do not let their students even see the A-card. This is also true at dropzones that pass their 7-level geniuses off onto their "advanced schooling" vendor to get them their licenses. On at least one very-prominent turbine dropzone they allow "outside instructors" to run their own programs for simple cost of lift tickets. My wife graduated seven levels of AFF from one of these guys and was hapilly sent on her way. She had no idea what an A-license proficiency card was when she arrived at Raeford.

Quote

We are interested in what you use and why. Something not explained well enough in the SIM? Additional info related to your particular DZ?

Who is "we?" The SIM is a great student reference, but we do not give every single student a copy of it. We teach our FJC off of a sylabus which we put together in the same, logical order as the SIM FJC, just with more detail where we thought it needed it. For what it's worth, we do not give every student a copy of that sylabus either, but gladly do so to any student who asks for one. It takes us an average of six and a half to seven hours to get through our FJC prior to turning the student over to instructors for Cat A ground briefing/training.

Chuck Blue
D-12501
AFF/SL/TM-I, BMCI, PRO

[justaman 0]

As you have said Mr skymonkeyone. All that happens.(you right you right you right) I heard the saying from a DZO Oh don't worry about that you can jump here and we'll take care of that for you. All that really happens is the student jumps there gets mad because the card is not being taken care of and leaves.
Now the student is wondering if every place is this way.
ISP followed this is not an issue

Do or do not

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Pencil-whipping it, pure and simple.

Exactly. Or they don't explain anything about licensing to them, making it harder for them to go to another DZ.

Derek

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

On another subject, your first response to the original poster was about handouts given to students in addition to what is in the SIM.

We are interested in what you use and why. Something not explained well enough in the SIM? Additional info related to your particular DZ?

From the recent student perspective, the SIM ISP section is really not that easy to browse through. The knowledge parts are imbedding within the dive flows and other details. So then you quickly scan, but not efficiently.

I use the SIM to find a specific detail, though even that isn't always easy without a computer search function. But the syllabi I got from Monterey and Perris are nice concise documents, esp on malfuctions and illustrations. I put them in front of my printed 2004 SIM in the same binder. Monterey also gave me a post AFF 5 page guide that expands on the basics that are most commonly of interest.

[peek 20]

"There are plenty of dropzones out there that do not let their students even see the A-card."

That is so outrageous I'm having difficulty believing it, but I believe you. Has anyone told these DZs what they are doing is ignorant?


"This is also true at dropzones that pass their 7-level geniuses off onto their "advanced schooling" vendor to get them their licenses."

That concept had not crossed my mind. It sounds like it could work if those students actually went to that vendor and got to work immediately. But if they went somewhere else thinking they were done with instruction it wouldn't.


Much of this is really confusing me, because it would seem that any DZ that is even slightly "commercial" would be happy to do more instruction and charge accordingly. Even a club would be happy to be able to make a little bit more from student jumps wouldn't they?

It would also seem that a DZ would want their students to get their licenses as soon as they can so they are less liable legally.



"Who is "we?""

I meant "I" but I'm trying to get the readers and posters of this thread involved. I don't want our exchange to drown out the benefits of a forum.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

That is so outrageous I'm having difficulty believing it, but I believe you. Has anyone told these DZs what they are doing is ignorant?

Ever try to tell a DZO that he is doing something wrong as a lowly Instructor? I have been kicked off DZ's for less, seriously.

Quote

Much of this is really confusing me, because it would seem that any DZ that is even slightly "commercial" would be happy to do more instruction and charge accordingly. Even a club would be happy to be able to make a little bit more from student jumps wouldn't they?

The problem I ran into again and again was the DZO was afraid of losing the student to the DZ down the road that offered a 7 jump program over a 25 jump program. Because of the student's ignorance and not realizing that it is money well spent, they'll go to the 7 jump program. Not always, if you explain the programs, they usually pick the better one. But again, try telling a DZO anything.

This is one of the reason I quit jumping, I did not want to do old school AFF and turn the student loose. In CO, all they do is old school AFF. Some DZ's offer "Level 8" jumps, but they are optional and most students don't bother.

I sent you an e-mail.

Derek

[justaman 0]

The DZO sets the tone of the drop zone.
Makes you wonder what they sound like.

It is also fair to say that there are those (DZOs) that have no ideal because Instructors have not told them or the instructors have no ideal themselves.( or don't care?)

I hope that all this will bring something that will make ISP work. (or be worked)

Do or do not

[billvon 2,434]

>Much of this is really confusing me, because it would seem that any DZ
> that is even slightly "commercial" would be happy to do more instruction
> and charge accordingly.

Compare the amount you can make on a tandem or level 1 AFF against what you can make on an ISP coach jump. They're not even close. Why not?

1. It's harder to profit off your friends than off strangers - and most skydivers who have 20 jumps have made friends.

2. By 20 jumps, skydivers begin to realize that they can just jump by themselves and not have to shell out big bucks for coach jumps.

3. By 20 jumps most skydivers are beginning to be able to bargain hunt - which means finding the DZO who will just sign them off for their A license.

For many DZO's, the 'upper levels' are just too much trouble for not much return.

[dropzonefool 0]

I personally know of a DZ that doesn't offer "A" license as a goal. You see with an "A" comes Parachutist Magazine with all the DZ listed across the world! He will lose business to his turbine competition. Also if his student never get's an "A" they have to keep renting his gear cause they don't know they can buy/jump their own.

At this very Drop Zone they do not have an AFF-I. They have two S/L-I. Their training is 5- static line jumps, then the two S/L-I's take the student up to 10k for aff jumps/training till graduation. Usually S/L training is 5-s/l jumps then 5, 10, 15, 30 second delays. Not AFF style exit with 2 S/L instructors. I will not involve myself in this because of the implecations, however I looked it up in the BSR's for shits and grins and found a very interseting paragraph regarding this. Apparently this kind of training can be done if the student takes or has taken an AFF FJC hosted by an AFF-I.
BSR's 2-1 E 5.C page 7 in the 2003 SIM's

[peek 20]

Well, thanks everyone for giving me the examples you had. I guess I'm used to instruction in my area where there is plenty of staff, and they are truly interested in teaching the novices, and not neccesarily in making as much money as they can.

In a conversation with someone else recently it was pointed out to me that at some drop zones and in some areas, instructors and drop zones were more profit oriented, and the AFF students "graduated" from the basic levels were no longer as profitable as the newer students and Tandem students, so they don't get much attention.

Gee, I always thought teaching people to skydive was fun, not profitable.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

To the person that PM'd me asking for a copy of our Sylabus: I deleted your message (like a moron) and forgot who asked me, so please PM me back and I will hook you up. I have it saved as a word document.